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Haile Selassie
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coolpoete
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Joined: 14 Jul 2002
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Location: From St. Maarten, living in Alabama

PostPosted: 11 Oct 2004 02:46    Post subject: Re: Respect, but I must correct Reply with quote

MarkMohr wrote:
Many Rastafarians base their faith on this lineage. The controversy of someone making these claims of lineage is not new, for in the New Testament Paul writes to the Church in Ephesus over this same subject. He rebukes them and urges them to turn away from this meaningless talk.....

When Jesus Christ was born of the Lineage of David and atoned for our sins, He ended all necessity for the further studies of genealogies.
Peace and love
Mark Mohr


I would like to comment here only to say that knowing one's geneology or researching and studying that is great and neccessary to some extent because when we teach our children and grandchildren about who we are and who they are it's important for them to know and understand where they came from. I don't believe it should be a basis of religious belief or doctrine like you say, because it has nothing to do with salvation.

Good to read your comments and to hear from you Mark!
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Makheru8



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: 11 Oct 2004 17:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings and Blessings:

This reasoining is most interesting, particularly in light of the assumptions here made on both sides of the argument. Mark and iri: correct if ones is mistaken but are you saying that because that was his name that does not mean that was who he was? More clearly is it that one's argue that just because his name is Lion of Judah dosen't make him one? In the west (western eurasian societies) names/titles are applied randomly..that is not true in an African sense, African names were always embodied concepts(ideas) be that Kemetic, Solomonic, or Dagara( or any number of extant, and extinct "primitive" communities). Names were/are given to match a person's spiritual identity/purpose. Additionally Ras Tafari Makonnen did not choose any of his titles or names, they were given. It appears that ones reason here that Ras Tafari took these titles and names to make himself appear to be something that he wasn't -- conversely one can make the argument that as he didn't choose the titles -- and they were given to him, we can equally reason that the titles accuratly described the person.

As far as the geneolgy is concerned... if you just refuse to accept it.. you just refuse to accept it. YOU have concluded the geneology was false.. my question becomes where else did he lie to make his word un-trustworthy? So here we sit in a most interesting situation. Haile Selassie.... a living breathing descendant of Menelik I, geneolgy and records established enough for the EOC (he was crowned Emperor -- which was the real problem)-- HIM you would call a liar, though you could see HIM, hear HIM, smell HIM, in all manner sense HIM. Here we compare him to "Jesus Christ" and use his geneology as a measure and standard for truth(root of David)? His geneology was quite possibly created 300 years after the fact. This aside from the reality that he would have not been related to David without Joseph being his father. Recall that during Nicea(Mycea) the participating parties agreed on little about Jesus Christ. There are no original/manuscripts for the bible. A Christian book that (particularly) in the new testament has not a single word of correction towards Rome?(the historical record is clear on the nature of their character -- lies and deception were Rome's tools).

Forgive me but it just seems like the measures for truth are skewed in ways unknown to me. It is difficult to see how ones can can conclude Jesus root of David -- True / Selassie I root of David-- False in light of who has told us what and what their sources are/were. The geneolgy of the Kebra Negast is much more solid than Jesus'. His fathers were real people, we know them, their faces are on coins -- speak to me of Jesus' fathers ( or rather Joseph's) -- so to say that there are "gaps"??? Did the "Jews" who were Jesus's own people recognize him as coming from the root of david?(don't know asking) Certainly the phariese would have been able to establish his heritage, and would they not have moved to install their own King (as descendent of David), wasn't it the preist who confirmed the Kings of Israel?

People who practice decpetion are always quick to call someone else a liar. Just like people who have never been lied to accept what ones says as truth. The "gap" in Selassie's geneolgy is, respectfully, one that is in ones mind -- I say this because we have no reason to assume he was lying, or do we(is there)? Now if a person ever came from Italy saying that they were a direct descendant -- I can overstand why ones would be slow to believe that -- Italy has done nothing but lie...but hasn't Ethiopia given us truth?

In peace,

Mac

"Italy has done nothing but lie" I overstand is a stong statement -- but this is in a historical context Rome to present the behavior is the same and honesty hasn't played a part.
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MarkMohr
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Joined: 28 Nov 2001
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Location: LA, CA, USA

PostPosted: 11 Oct 2004 19:19    Post subject: The Names Reply with quote

Thank you for your response Mac. I do have a hard time agreeing with you on certain points. As to the lineage of Christ not being an issue at the time, or not being well documented, your understanding is just way off point. You need to go back and read the first chapter of each of the synoptic gospels, then you will see what a big deal the lineage of Christ was. It was well documented and began each of these gospels because it meant more to many of the readers than the stories that followed. These gospels were written less than 60 years after Christ ascended up to heaven. But interestingly enough, the emphasis on this lineage stopped at Christ in the New Testament. For there was no royalty given to Jesus' family after his death and resurrection. In fact, James, a leader in the N.T. church, was merely called "Jesus' brother." As for your arguments regarding the Kebra Negast, have you actually read it? Have you read the
Gospels? If so, you should understand what I am saying.

You may argue that Selassie was born of the root of David, if you want to believe that, I have no problem with you. In fact, I will even give you that one. Say he was born of the root of David. He still did not come through the exact lineage of Christ (In other words, through the line of Mary and Joseph). The reason why the lineage of Selassie is not a big deal for me is because Christ fulfilled the prophecies, he was and is the Son of God. The buck stops there. The Bible never again speaks of the Jesus returning again as a baby, only as the pierced Christ coming back on the clouds of heaven for all to see.

As for your argument about names:
Just like in Biblical times, one's name and its meaning are very important in Ethiopia today. Long after Tafari Makonnen was born he was called "Ras Tafari". "Ras" being an Ethiopian title name symbolizing royalty meaning "Prince" or "Head", and "Tafari" meaning "Creator", hence his name means the "Head Creator". The name obviously derived from John 1. Rastafarians believe that because he was given this name, he is the creator of everything. This is not Biblically accurate. According to the Bible Jesus Christ is the "Head Creator". In both Genesis 1 and John 1 the Bible clearly states that "Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3).

In fact, in the Preface to The Autobiography of Emperor Haile Selassie I, "My Life and Ethiopia's Progress" 1892-1937, Selassie writes these shocking words; "At this hour, when I have found occasion and time to write the story of my life, I preface my writing by presenting the following prayer to my Creator and then continue this work. O Lord, Almighty in whom there is no weakness, eternal in whom there is no transience; in admiring Your work as well as your judgments, a created being, even after much searching, cannot fathom them- except to a limited extent." (Selassie 10) In another writing he states; "And those who have used it for their own purposes have abjured this doctrine which is an insult to all men and to Almighty God in whose image we are created." ( Selassie p. 9) In another text he clearly states once again; "For it is true that Our Lord the Creator sends us into the world as equals." (Selassie p. 6) In these writings, Haile Selassie clearly states that he is a created being like all humans. He prays to his Creator. If Selassie was created then He cannot be the "Head Creator". For God is eternal without beginning or end--not a created being.
Although Ras Tafari was called "Haile Selassie" the "Power of the Trinity" it is Biblically evident that Jesus Christ being one with the Father and the
Spirit is the true "Power of the Trinity." Jesus Christ is not only the "Power of the Trinity." He was also given the name "Emmanuel" 700 years before His birth. "Emmanuel" means "God with us"! Even the name "Jesus Christ" is an astonishing statement. For in his letter to the church at Philippi, Paul writes about Christ saying; "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:8-11). In defense, many Rastas claim that "He shall come in a new name", regardless of this new name, salvation and redemption is found in only one name; "JESUS CHRIST". According to Acts 4:12, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." In giving the plan of salvation in Romans, Paul writes;" That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) Salvation is found through the name of Jesus Christ alone. He is the only one through whom we find redemption for our sins, and the only way to the Father.
The name "Jesus" comes from the Hebrew name "Yeshua" which means "I am salvation". The name "Christ" means the "Messiah" or the "Anointed one". So Jesus Christ's full name is "I AM SALVATION, THE MESSIAH, THE ANOINTED ONE, GOD WITH US." What a statement! No other name holds that power.
There is no possible way that any other man can take the title "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" to which Selassie is credited, for it is written in the Word of God that Jesus Christ is the "King of all Kings and the Lord of all Lords" (1 Tim 6:15) to which no one can even compare. Besides, Selassie was given this title when he was crowned and was mere king of Ethiopia. And the exact title did not make him Lord of the universe, but merely "King of kings and lord of lords OF ETHIOPIA". And this was a very common title given to all of the kings and queens that proceeded his position on the throne. Jesus has carried this title since before creation and rules all of creation and every king. For it was the earthly magi who brought gifts to the young Messiah in Jeruselem, bowed before the Jesus child, and worshipped the new born King!
Haile Selassie was called the "Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah" because he was "born in July under the Zodiac sign of 'Leo' the Lion". The Bible uses certain symbols to represent Christ, such as a hard working ox, or a spotless sacrificial lamb, and lastly the Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah. It is a fact that Christ is from the tribe of Judah according to Hebrews 7:14 Further evidence that Jesus is this Conquering Lion is found in Revelation 5:4-6 in which the Lion appears as a lamb that had been slain.
There is no other name that has the power, authority, and dominion over all things as that of Jesus Christ:
"And his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." Ephesians 1:19-23

Peace in Christ,
Mark Mohr
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Makheru8



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: 12 Oct 2004 04:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings and Blessings:

First my only concern was the validty of his lineage, and the scale for truth used with comparison with Jesus Christs' lineage..As you have stated that you'd give that he was from the Root of David... My argument was never that Selassie was Christ -- just respect of truth.

You do mention one thing that interests me though... why is it ones conclude that the second coming will not involve birth? (is there a scriptural reference for this reasoning?) -- I've never understood that.

John 1 is in refernce to the WORD -- the Word is eternal, and would not have died passively, agressively or in anyway on anyones cross -- for the Word to die none of us could exist -- that would unmake creation(erase the page). "In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" -- a doctrine that predates John and Christianity by thousands of years..not that ones would say it was invalid -- but "Jesus Christ"..no. This was new testament his name could have been substituted. How does one conclude that Ras Tafari's name derived from this source? That assumes that his name was planned to be Ras Tafari (Head creator) from the moment he was named Tafari Makonnen (eh and if it was it just was). His baptismal name was his baptismal name, did he choose it? The further arguments regarding the head creator... "Jesus" would not have been head creator either -- he too was(would have been) formed. But really.. no one knows the name of the son(word) save the Father.

In Peace,

Mac
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JahTed



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 23:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings once again all the divine name of Emperor Haile Sellassie and Queen Isis-Menen, King and Queen of Zion.

Give thanks for the forum to express I Livity on Ras Tafari.

[quote]He still did not come through the exact lineage of Christ (In other words, through the line of Mary and Joseph). This only proves the mythical presentation of christ in the N.T. Joseph was not the paternal father of christ. Further more virgin birth is not something that occurs in humanity. The two lineage given for christ in the N.T does not correspond. There is quite a remarkable difference in the two. Was there a mistake somewhere?



For it is true that Our Lord the Creator sends us into the world as equals." (Selassie p. 6) In these writings, Haile Selassie clearly states that he is a created being like all humans. He prays to his Creator. True!True! Pure teachings on livity by His Majesty. Now when christ taught his deciples to pray I believe he started this way " Our father which art in heaven....etc. The N.T also claimed that at his crucifixion Christ cried out " my God , my God, why have thou for saken me"? InI see no difference. Oh by the way when his majesty triumphantly returned to Itiopia he said this as well " The Lion of Judah has prevailed"- Rev 5V5. This is in His autobiorgraphy as well.

[quote]Haile Selassie was called the "Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah" because he was "born in July under the Zodiac sign of 'Leo' the Lion". Idren this not so all the Itiopian Emperors from Menelix I on down are crowned "Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah". Are you saying they were all born in July? This is a very sacred title that pre-dates the man of Gallalie.

Peace in Selassie
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12TribesLion



Joined: 01 Oct 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Caribbean

PostPosted: 15 Oct 2004 07:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points you made Makheru. Mark Mohr, you made some good points on the Messiah being the only Way, Truth, & Life. Yet still there is no reason why I should deny that His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I is not one of the lions of Judah, like all the Ethiopian and Israelite kings were.

Like you even said they represent the Conquering Lion of Judah who is Yahshua Ha Mashiach, or Jesus Christ like many Christians know Him as, but I rather prefer using His original Hebrew name instead. I am aware that some Ethiopians deny Selassie's Israelite lineage through Solomon and David, but I don't believe it is no lie.

Here was this great African King sitting on the Throne of David, the world oldest sovereign throne, which the Kebre Negast shows us. I also don't believe that the Kebre is no story, but show us the half of the story that has never been told. These modern bibles are nothing but carbon distorted copies from the original one, so why not could they have ommited the Apocrypha and even the Kebre Negast?

Babylon don't want the people to see the truth, so they try to hide it from us. I feel that Emperor Haile Selassie did point us Rastafarians to the Messiah, & even though I don't agree with glorifying the Emperor which most of my fellow Rastas do, still I'm not going to ridicule them for Jah is only Judge. I feel that Rastafarians and Christians should reason together like we are doing here, hope that will really be seen soon.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2004 12:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

!2Tribes Lion,

I agree with much of what you said here. And the part about Selassie being one of the Lions of Judah as related to the Ethiopian Kings, I have no problem with that either. Where we part ways is that we believe that there is only one true Lion of Judah. (I totally understand why many Rastas want to sight Selassie as Christ in part because of this given title) Christ coming in His Fullest Glory alone can fulfill all that the Bible says about the Lion of Judah. This is not disrespect for Selassie in any way. Many Rastas would not feel that way.
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JahTed



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2004 21:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

RasTafari Greetings in Holy name of His Emperial Majesty Haile Selassie and Queen Isis Menen. King and Queen of Zion.


Blaminack wrote:
Quote:
Where we part ways is that we believe that there is only one true
Lion of Judah. (I totally understand why many Rastas want to sight Selassie as Christ in part because of this given title) Christ coming in His Fullest Glory alone can fulfill all that the Bible says about the Lion of Judah. This is not disrespect for Selassie in any way. Many Rastas would not feel that way.


Now lets see, the name Lion of Judah has been in the Itiopia's Royal family for thousands and thousands of years. Many many years before a man called Christ came to Palestine. How then could he be "the true" Lion of Judah. On what basis does the Idren base this? How did the I get to the conclusion of trueness?

Peace in Selassie.
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