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Haile Selassie: good or bad man?
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JonaGus
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 486
Location: Alexandria

PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 16:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makheru8 wrote:
My question though is why do you use the Lion of Zion symbols, the red gold and green, dreads, etc.. when it seems so many of you have such disdain and contempt for Rastafarian doctrines and the Champion of Faith? ...Its peculiar behavior, to adopt the symbols of a movement that one declares invalid -- is that sane?


Makheru, I think you will find that many non-Rastas here, like myself, have great respect and reverence for Emperor Haile Selassie.

As for the symbols: the Lion is an image from the Jewish and Christian scriptures, from which Rastafarians derived it. Ethiopia was a Christian nation for centuries before Rastafarianism ever existed. "Dreads" occur naturally in many hair types, and many people prefer them for their naturalness and/or as a celebration of their heritage. None of these are exclusively Rasta domains. In fact, the majority of them (lions, colors, magens) are symbols that Rastas derived from Judaism and Christianity, not the other way around.

Quote:
One can say that the "Conquering Lion of Judah" and related symbols do not belong to Rasta as they are referenced in the Holy Bible and are property to all.


I wouldn't say "to all." I would say such images will inevitably be used by all people and religions of a Judeo-Christian heritage. That includes Rastafari, which is a derivative religion.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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blaminack
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 16:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makheru8,

I think that you have been given the wrong impression of LOZ due some incorrect info. I don't think that you have seen something that downgrades or disrespects Selassie in any way that came from LOZ. First it is a matter of perspectives. If you believe that HIM is diven then anything that anyone could say to show something contrary is seen as being disrespectful. If someone thinks of HIM as God and I do not, I am automatically seen as on the attack and that is by no means the case. The only goal in LOZ is for people who do not know Christ to find Christ. I don't think even one person here thinks that Christ cannot reveal Himself through a Rasta faith. However when that happens there is an adjustment that takes place in regards to previously held beliefs. Think of the life and testimony of Judy Mowatt. Is she not still Rasta in life style, yet she sees HIM in a differant light now. She has seen HIM as He him self wanted to be seen. That is by no means an illegitimate growth!
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Makheru8



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 18:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irie-in-Christ wrote:
Some say Haile Selassie was not a good man at all. According to them he was not very intelligent, and he made many political bad moves. I spoke with some ethiopians, and they had only bad words about their former emperor...


Jah Pickney wrote:
Even though he was a devout Christian he did not always practice what he preached. He was a great fighter but he was known for giving bad treatment to the por and hungry.


Irie-in-Christ wrote:
Strictly spoken you could say that even Haile Selassie was walking in a babylon spirit (opressing and not looking after the poor and needy).


JonaGus wrote:

The same may be said of many monarchs in history. A good example is Tsar Nicholas II: he was an extremely devout Christian and great family man, but definitely not cut out for politics and the monarchy.
.


Irie-in-Christ wrote:
Some even say that he was a dictator. I don't know what reasons they have for this, and whether these reasons are valid. Anyone?


Jah Pickney wrote:
I can too! Just because men decided to give him those titles doesn't mean that's who he truly is.


warrior wrote:


Why is it fortunate? Were all the Ethiopian Kings perfect?

.


Irie-in-Christ wrote:
Now about Haile Selassie being a descendant of Solomon, this is historically and scientifically not clear at all. This is not a sure fact. ...I think you give Selassie too much credit. ...


JonaGus wrote:

Makheru, I think you will find that many non-Rastas here, like myself, have great respect and reverence for Emperor Haile Selassie.

As for the symbols: the Lion is an image from the Jewish and Christian scriptures, from which Rastafarians derived it. Ethiopia was a Christian nation for centuries before Rastafarianism ever existed... None of these are exclusively Rasta domains. In fact, the majority of them (lions, colors, magens) are symbols that Rastas derived from Judaism and Christianity, not the other way around.


blaminack wrote:
Makheru8,

I think that you have been given the wrong impression of LOZ due some incorrect info. I don't think that you have seen something that downgrades or disrespects Selassie in any way that came from LOZ. First it is a matter of perspectives. If you believe that HIM is diven then anything that anyone could say to show something contrary is seen as being disrespectful.


Respectfully, If oui have gotten the wrong impression it is because oui read what was written. Jonagus: you imply that Haile Selassie was not a fit ruler and king -- is that honor or respect? Blaminak -- what incorrect info? oui can decide if oui have seen writings that downgrade and are disrepectful to Selassie I -- oui have. Oui view Selassie I as the 225th King to sit on the throne descended of the line of David -- oui don't view Selassie I as "saviour" -- but these things that were written are still disrespectful -- you say HIM name not HIM name -- you call him a liar!

Ones mention Rasta as a "derived" religion... all things grow refine and blossom. Christianity and Judaism do not represent the beginning of theological thought. The Lion of Zion is purely AFRICAN...Apedamak an old ntr(god) of Nubia (Sudan) predates any christian thought by thousands years, and as you say future ideas are "derived" from previous ones. So I guess to complete your reasoning above Rasta borrowed the symbol of Christianity/Judaism who borrowed the symbol from Ethiopians (Nubians). Additionally, the use of a symbol requires intimate knowledge of said symbol. If one is to ascribe something the symbol of a Hare it would be because that thing emboided the qualities and attributes of a hare. The only people who can use a hare as a symbol are those who are around hares enough to understand their traits qualities and attributes. It is only these people who overstand hares and can ascribe it as a symbol for something else.
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perfectloveinH.I.M.
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 18:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

more fiyah!!!!!
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"being 2nd advent Christian and feeling deh persecution of wolves in sheep's clothing masked as true Christians, Ini don't feel de need fi force Haile Selassie I on ones but to stay eternally cognizant dat salvation is summed up in love for I-manity.
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JonaGus
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 19:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makheru8 wrote:
JonaGus wrote:

The same may be said of many monarchs in history. A good example is Tsar Nicholas II: he was an extremely devout Christian and great family man, but definitely not cut out for politics and the monarchy.


Jonagus: you imply that Haile Selassie was not a fit ruler and king -- is that honor or respect?


Actually, I said that Tsar Nicholas of Russia was a better family man than he was a ruler, and that many people still regard him as a great and even holy man --even as a saint and a martyr! Someone else said Selassie made bad mistakes in his rule. The point of my comment was that even if Selassie did make mistakes as an emperor that would not necessarily make him a bad person. He could still be regarded as a devout Christian and a man worthy of respect and reverence even if he did make some mistakes. I don't think there's any dishonor in defending him thus.

Quote:
Ones mention Rasta as a "derived" religion... all things grow refine and blossom.


I appreciate that you have a positive view of Rastafarian development. It is still derivation, nevertheless. Rastafari is still inseparably rooted in Judaism and Christianity.

Quote:
The Lion of Zion is purely AFRICAN


"Zion" was the name given to a Jebusite fortress near modern-day Jerusalem that was conquered by David (2Samuel 5). It was located on a hill in southeastern Jerusalem called Mount Zion. (This hill is now the site of David's Tomb & the Church of the Dormition) In David's time, Zion was a section of Jerusalem. After his death, it came to refer to the Temple mount of Jerusalem, i.e. Solomon's Temple and its grounds. Over time it referred to all the high land of Jerusalem. Among people in the Jewish diaspora, much later, it came to refer to the whole promised land of Israel.

The Lion has always been a symbol of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:8-12), whence the kings come. Zion is part of the land belonging to Judah.

On what grounds could you possibly assert that this is "purely African"? It's in Israel, brother, and it's Jewish.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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perfectloveinH.I.M.
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 19:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ini was listening to a Morgan Heritage song called "outta hand" yesterday and deh lead singer, Peter Morgan made an excellent point of saying dat "deh royalty is so high dat some can't attain, nuffa wi ah work in vain".
when one sits down and meditates on deh presence of H.I.M. on earth during deh 20th century, for many it becomes inconceivable for an ancient biblical personage to be present during dose times so dey were forced to down grade Haile Selassie I's status, to dispute His titles, to dispute His lineage, to dispute whether or not Mama I-thiopia indeed holds deh Ark of the Covenant of Jah and for what? why go out of your way to attempt to dis deh King of Kings? do you think anywhere in deh Christian theology dat dis is upful and positive?

Quote:
has seen HIM as He him self wanted to be seen
.

Quote:
Matthew 9:30
And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See [that] no man know [it].

Matthew 12:16
And charged them that they should not make him known:

Matthew 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Matthew 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Mark 3:12
And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

Mark 5:43
And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.

Mark 7:36
And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published [it];

Mark 8:30
And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

Mark 9:9
And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Luke 5:14
And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Luke 8:56
And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

Luke 9:21
And he straitly charged them, and commanded [them] to tell no man that thing;


now Ini waan deh I dem to see deh numerous times Emmanuel specifically told ones not speak of what he had done, basically denying Himself recognition and glory. so when ones come and say dat Christ was just out and about saying dat He was Jah any and everywhere, that is not true. it still took a "divine conception of deheart to behold Him."

so when Selassie I says " I am mortal and will be replaced by the oncoming generations"

then in deh next breath H.I.M. says regarding death "We do not understand your question" "who is dis woman, what does she want?"
(Fallaci inner-view)

or when He says "Who am I to doubt their(Rases) faith?"

for many it would seem to be giving contrasting messages but it is deh walking of deh fine line of Jah and man, because Jah never has to say dat He is Jah.
Hail H.I.M.in perfectlove
_________________
"being 2nd advent Christian and feeling deh persecution of wolves in sheep's clothing masked as true Christians, Ini don't feel de need fi force Haile Selassie I on ones but to stay eternally cognizant dat salvation is summed up in love for I-manity.
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 20:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

perfectloveinH.I.M. wrote:
now Ini waan deh I dem to see deh numerous times Emmanuel specifically told ones not speak of what he had done


Yes, many times Y'shua told his disciples not to tell others who he was or what he was doing because his "hour" had not yet arrived. But he never told his disciples (or anyone else, for that matter) that he is not God, that he is not the Christ, that he could not perform miracles, etc. In fact, he told his disciples and many others that he is God and that he is Christ, and performed miracles before them. This is why his enemies sought to stone him: they heard him claim divinity. He never denied who he is, even accepting their adoration and worship, he merely asked some people not to expose the truth for a short time.

Quote:
so when ones come and say dat Christ was just out and about saying dat He was Jah any and everywhere, that is not true.


Actually, you're wrong. He did both: he told many people and he hid it from many people. You can call it inconsistent, perhaps, but you can't deny it.

I think what you're trying to argue is that Selassie hid his divinity like Y'shua. I agree that Y'shua sometimes hid himself (other times, he definitely did not). But Y'shua never denied himself. Not once. Y'shua NEVER said "I am not God" or "I am not the Christ." Y'shua never called anyone his own "Creator," because he is not a creature. When his disciples worshipped and adored Y'shua, he never rebuked them nor told them to stop.

But Selassie refused wroship when he said "I am a man, and man cannot worship man." And Selassie denied being God when he called Y'shua his Creator. I do not believe Selassie was lying about this. He really isn't God.

There are many Rastas who have studied Selassie's words and agree about this. The Twelve Tribesmen I've heard don't believe Emperor Selassie is God, and they are Rastas. You don't have to believe Selassie is God to be a Rasta.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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warthog
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Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2004 20:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'shua NEVER said "I am not God"


ON THE CROSS YESHUAH SAID FATHER WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME, IN RESPONSE TO THIS I GET REALLY TIRED OF HEARING ALOT OF MANMADE FANTASY CONTRADICTING THE TWO.
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