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HERB IS THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS
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DO YOU CARE ENOUGH TO RESEARCH THE FACTS?
OF COURSE, BROTHA
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NAHH I'M SO COMFY HERE ANYWAY
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 12:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaminack wrote:
I didn't say that I support any oppression. You never asked me what I think the consequences should be for smoking/possesing weed.


No, because the very idea of having someone decide to make someone else have a penalty or fine over something this someone doesn't like is totally beyond my way of thinking.

Quote:
You asked if I think it should be illegal. Yes I do. It is harmful. Do I support the war on drugs? No. Do I think it shouldbe illegal? Yes...




You only want the prisons half full then? Or do you want those evil weed smokers in a correction institute? Or should they just pay the policeman that captures them a fine (that poor people cannot pay and thus will also get them in prison while the elite can use it freely) so the policeman can buy his next car? Cause that is what happens in the war on drugs: police are bandits and they can legally rob everyone as long as they say they think the stuff they want to rob would be used for "drug related activities".


Quote:
I think speeding in your car on the highway is and should be illegal. Do I think that some one should go to jail over it? Only if the case is extreme enough to warrant it. You have read WAY too much into what you think my opinion is.


I think that you do not realize how far the consequences are that come with your opinnion. The point is that the very illegality of the drugs enables the government to use this prohibition as an act of tyranny. I hope you admit this. Now you must take the consequence. Keeping it illegal will create allways a gov't that declares a "war on drugs". Natural fact. Like you allways like to draw attention to possible consequences of smoking herb you must now take that principal and applie it to yourself and face the consequences of any prohibition.

Quote:
Making a thing legal after it is illegal is promotion of it's use.


What an absurd reasoning. You must be for prohibition of alcohol and tobacco too, then. Totally ignoring the consequences of this power that you give the gov't over one's life by being against it. When your opinnion is that something should be illegal it is not only an opinnion about the sibstancxe, it is also an opinnion about politics. When you say a thing should be illegal you are saying that the government is the "person" to "deal" with that issue in a "judicial context", can you feel me here?

Legalizing drugs, in your mind set I would say, make the war on drugs illegal.

Quote:
What am I doing to tear down Babylon? This very thread is smashing some serious lies that Babylon has spread.


This very thread is only to tear down the herb smokers again. That is what matters here. Even when someone comes here and says that hemp can be very benificial for the economy this is being "teared down" as a "babylon lie". Come on.

Quote:
I NEVER said to do nothing until Jah comes! That is totally out of context. I say do everything that is right to tear it down. But you and I both know it will only be dead after Christ returns. That is plain to see.


You are stating that the system won't change and that we have to face that.... Okay so you might not indicate with that that you don't want to do anything. Apologise. The things you do propose are obviously not recognized by me as things to tear down babylon system.

If you want the system changed, you must change the system. So in this war on drugs context, change the downpression by making the war on drugs illegal. If you demand people to obey the law you are doing not one thing to tear down babylon, you are only telling the people to comply with tyranny.

It is my hope that I will see the day that JAH tears down babylon for good but I do not know if that will be in my time. Let's take it to the 1940's. If everyone would have your stance, no one would have resisted against the tyranny and it would still be here under this form.

We are not told to wait until JAH tears down babylon and until that time we have to support it under some kind of "Romans 13 reasoning". We are told to stand up for freedom equality and justice. We are told to hold babylon back. To be the salting salt (salt conserves and prevents decay) in the world.

Quote:
Are really serious about the idea that Jah is not upset with ganja abuse? That would make Him quite an unloving God. I hope that you don't see Him with such lack of compassion. How could I be more loving that Love it's self? That doesn't even make sense.


I know I make much spelling mistakes and I really should check what i write before i hit post, but i am very sure that i never said JAH like ganja abuse. I spoke about ganja use all the time. Not about abuse. I also think that you do not solve ganja abuse by having a war on drugs, watered down or not. Ganja abuse is not solved in prison or by paying extra tax to the government (fine). You speak about love in this context. Is the prohibition JAH love? No it is only a reason for babylon to keep people down. And that is why this has to be changed. The mere illegality of ganja creates all these problems that you say are caused by ganja itself. That is the babylonian lie.

Also the ghetto's are not there because all of them use drugs, it is the other way around. Keeping drugs illegal is equal to maintaining the situation in the ghetto.

Addicts must be able to get their drugs from a doctor, so they will not do crimes. It will no longer be interesting for dealers to sell hard drugs, for as soon as they have a new customer hooked they will go to the doctor. Addicts, when they get their drugs, then have the possibility to try to make something of their life, eventually abandoning their addiction.

Ganja should be legal because it doesn't do the damage that alcohol does, and alcohol is not forbidden by JAH. People are actually enjoying it, not causing or getting into troubles either. So why must they hide?

Quote:
And I support NO downpression and that is exactly why I say for people never to start smoking in the first place.


That's just a one-liner. Ganja doesn't downpress, the government downpresses and to stop downpression you have to stop the law that enables the government to practice tyranny.

What is more important: that ganja is illegal or that the government is putting tyranny on people and how would you relate THAT to your remarks concerning compassion and love from the Most High?

Name me one reason why the government, which is proven to be guilty of abusing every possibility they have to keep the people down, is the right "person" to "deal" with ganja? Why not let the people do it themselves?

Why do you not grant me the freedom to choose for myself if I want to smoke herb or not?

?
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 14:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze,

will you admit if people were to stop doing drugs and smoking weed the war on Drugs would have to end do to lack of interest? If not then you must simply boil this down to I believe that weed is bad, and you think it is fine. We both have asked and answered all these questions... We have differant perspectives, and it a great thing that it is not just you and I in charge of the course of the World. I am thankful that God is in charge and I know that to be the case.

One of us will be shown to be right and the other wrong. You do your part and I will do the part that I feel God has lead me to.

I have no time to break this down any further. we both have said the same things for at least the last ten posts....
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mikeroots
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 22:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messian Dread quote:
Ganja should be legal because it doesn't do the damage that alcohol does, and alcohol is not forbidden by JAH. People are actually enjoying it, not causing or getting into troubles either. So why must they hide?

Where is the medical evidence to support your claim? Sure- ABUSING alcohol is harmful, but consumption of alcohol within the biblical parameters JAH has given us isn't harmful. On the contrary it is beneficial. Smoking, in any quantity is harmful. Smoke particles being deposited in the lungs is harmful. I believe anything which does this directly by its use should be avoided. I would appreciate some biblical support for smoking before further attempts are made to equate it with wine drinking or alcohol consumption in general. Aside from the physical health concerns- drinking a glass of wine versus smoking a spliff do not produce the same result. I say this based on the testimony of those who have used ganja. Could it be that supposed mental clarity that one seems to feel when smoking ganja is a delusional aspect of its consumption? I think it is much easier to stand against something which causes a more obvious impairment.

Also, I am not against HEMP production. I think it is wrong for governments to ban the growing and useage of hemp of the non-cannabis (if that is the right term) variety. I believe hemp is a wonderfully resourceful plant. For years I have used a hemp oil product for bathing and shampooing and also have some clothing manufactured from hemp and these are excellent products. It is a shame and wrong to lump everything together with marijuana that is smoked.

Bottom line is I don't believe that smoking is a JAH intended practice. I think the origins of smoking may actually be among cultures who rejected Him though I haven't done research to prove it. It could have been established as part of rituals of nations or societies which served strange gods.

I think it's quite obvious that despite the knowledge that tobacco companies and the government had for years that smoking was responsible for many diseases and deaths- they continued to be work together to promote its use. Why? Because it put money in their pockets.
Did they really care about whether or not people became addicted, got cancer or died prematurely. Now, after probably billions of dollars in lawsuits, the goverment is placing big taxes on smoking and is forcing the tobacco companies to create advertising to discourage people from smoking. This is kind of strange to me though. The government still allows tobacco companies to operate, advertise, manufacture cigarettes and sell them BUT they must tell the public that their products are deadly. (While out of the other side of their mouths saying "They are for your enjoyment and pleasure. ") It's probably true that if the gov't didn't make so much money from smoking they would ban it.

If governments didn't establish some restrictions there would be anarchy.
So long as laws don't force us to transgress the commandements of our Father, we should comply with them. I don't think having a "free-for-all" society is a good idea. Ideally, everyone would be followers of Christ and would make decisions based on His desires but until He comes not everyone will be of this decision making motivation. Jetze, I understand what you are saying about giving people the freedom to choose for themselves. But what role should government play? I think government's role should be to uphold values, morals and principles which are biblically founded and should be led by the Holy Spirit. I understand that is idealistic and utopian, but I think that's what they should do. It would not support gay marriages and prostitution. I would think it would also not support casinos.

Legalisation of drugs is a trickier issue perhaps than many realize. Is restriction of cocaine, heroin and marijuana because the government can't find a way to regulate them and make a profit or is it because they want to protect people from harmful effects of their use? I think ultimately it all comes down to pesonal choice anyway. For many, laws were made to be broken and only apply if you get caught. Perhaps it's not the government's role to ban these substances, but spend the money in "the war on drugs" on educating people about the hazards and promoting abstinence from drug use instead. Would this produce a much better result than what we've gotten so far? The subject is somewhat complex and must be carefully dissected. There needs to be a balance between maintaining an order of deceny for citizens and also allowing people to make choices for themselves.
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 00:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow its blown out of porpotion....what amazes me is when people answer to points that people make they should read and understand carefully before responding....i refferred to smoking.....if the doctor prescribed his patient to smoke gunja then it is extremely unorthodox..what would the medical council have to say...i was speaking in general...there is always an exception to the rule...

how many doctors would prescribe thier patients to smoke pot???
remember this is a question not a statement....read what i type and see if they are questions or staements,,
statements should be backed up by facts...love u all
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 01:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeroots wrote:
Messian Dread quote:
Ganja should be legal because it doesn't do the damage that alcohol does, and alcohol is not forbidden by JAH. People are actually enjoying it, not causing or getting into troubles either. So why must they hide?

Where is the medical evidence to support your claim?


In the lack of ganja deaths vs the huge amount of alcohol deaths, for example. Despite the fact alcohol is legal.

In the lack of stupidity that is present when one drinks a lot vs the thoughtfullness that can be there when smoked ganja, to name another aspect.

You allways raise these health stuff. Allways the smoking you say is wrong, but you do not speak about tea or when you do you say you have not a clear opinnion.

OK, but our discussion should be: can a christian do something which is labeled unhealthy by the health industry?


Quote:
Sure- ABUSING alcohol is harmful, but consumption of alcohol within the biblical parameters JAH has given us isn't harmful. On the contrary it is beneficial. Smoking, in any quantity is harmful. Smoke particles being deposited in the lungs is harmful.


But where do you find the biblical evidence (much more important then the scientist) to back your statement JAH's commandments about alcohol deal with health? On the contrary, you can see that allways when there is negative talk tabout alcohol in the Bible it is about the effect and the matter of sobrieity. Now this sobrieity does not neccesarily mean the abstanance for a little [b]makes the heart glad[b] and too much "makes you a mocker" or disables one from thinkin g. These are the biblical reasons nopt to want to drink alcohol. Mind you, not because it is unhealthy. Sure, the positive health aspect is mentioned as a reason fur using it, but it is not mentioned as a reason not to use it. Paulus did not live a healthy life, neither did John the Baptist.

Quote:
I believe anything which does this directly by its use should be avoided. I would appreciate some biblical support for smoking before further attempts are made to equate it with wine drinking or alcohol consumption in general.


You yourself make the comparision on occasions (and you quickly add you that allways that you do not compare them but still you do), so why should I not do it? Ofcourse the comparison is there because the same biblical principals apply.

You can say you want proof from the Bible then smoking is not a sin, but still you do not ask for biblical questions when it comes to my biblical intepretation. You raise this health thing again.

It doesn't say in the Bible that you can or can not smoke. Still it was done in those days. It is neither condemned nor is it promoted. Doesn't that make to make the conclusion that other biblical principals will have to apply?

I am not so convinced that smoking herb is what the babylonians say it is. Too many people die of old age and they are smoking it.

Quote:
Aside from the physical health concerns- drinking a glass of wine versus smoking a spliff do not produce the same result. I say this based on the testimony of those who have used ganja. Could it be that supposed mental clarity that one seems to feel when smoking ganja is a delusional aspect of its consumption?


No I do not think that to be the case as a universal thing. Sure there are people who do not control their thoughts and they will have a harder time when they smoke or drink herb. People can be insecurte and thing and they will be confronted with this more extreme when they smoked. But it is also possible that it is not a handicap when you smoked.

I know as a teenager I smoked a lot of herb and I do not think that it made me a worse person. I think it even helped me in my thinking.

Quote:
If governments didn't establish some restrictions there would be anarchy.


Not when herb is legal it won't.



Quote:
So long as laws don't force us to transgress the commandements of our Father, we should comply with them.


I see it different. I am bound only to the law of Yesus Kristos and then there will be no righteous law against me. Real simple....

Quote:
Jetze, I understand what you are saying about giving people the freedom to choose for themselves. But what role should government play?


In the social and health region they would have to do something. Like preventing people from taking drugs, but also giving guidelines in case the drugs is used. Drugs is not a thing for the police or even the freaking military in their war on drugs.

Quote:
Legalisation of drugs is a trickier issue perhaps than many realize.


In any way, not an issue per se for people who have some personal usage to legalize.

Quote:
Is restriction of cocaine, heroin and marijuana because the government can't find a way to regulate them and make a profit or is it because they want to protect people from harmful effects of their use?


It's illegal because it makes more profit for the government founded drug kartels and a perfect reason to keep poor people in the prison system. That is why the gov't is against legalization and I do not think that a righteous person would see these two reasons as valid.

Quote:
I think ultimately it all comes down to pesonal choice anyway. For many, laws were made to be broken and only apply if you get caught. Perhaps it's not the government's role to ban these substances, but spend the money in "the war on drugs" on educating people about the hazards and promoting abstinence from drug use instead. Would this produce a much better result than what we've gotten so far?


You bet it would.....

Quote:
The subject is somewhat complex and must be carefully dissected. There needs to be a balance between maintaining an order of deceny for citizens and also allowing people to make choices for themselves.


I am against hard drugs because you can not use these things without getting into a situation the bible calls "sin". But I do not think the government should forbid these things. I am not against legalization of the hard drugs, provided that it would be given to addicts by doctors or something like that. This way people would have to start using heroin for example at a dealer, but when the person is hooked (pretty quikc most of the time) he can then get his drugs with the doctor. So it would not be lucrative for the dealer to deal hard drugs and he would start to find a better hob instead.

When herb would be legalized you would only make a lot of people happy and it would not cause an increase in criminality. Neither would it cause an increase in medical things. You would also create a situation in which smoking the herb would be less dangerous.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 04:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze,

the Bible tells us that we as Christians are to shun the ways of the World. We are to turn from the things that the World is in love with. Is not the World in love with Ganja? It seems every Rap song now days is glorifying it's use. Cypress Hill, Snoop Dog etc. The problem with your line of reasoning is that you place your vote for credence and credibility with these examples and others instead of teaching and preaching a message of Holiness. God has called us to be Holy. What about this issue is Holy? What about this issue even comes close to bringing glory to God? Jetze we are called to stand against the World! Do you deny that? Is that not the command of God? Has not God called us to be differant and separate from the things that the world is wrapped up in? Watch MTV and BET for a day or two and see if the things spoken are godly or not. Are we supposed to look like them? Are we not supposed to be Born Again and not be in line with that mind set?

I know that you are solidly convinced into your mindset on this. I know that you have put much thought into it. But is there no way that there is room in your mind for the possibility of being wrong?

My stand point is much clearer. Here is how. If I am wrong my approach causes no one to be in sin. But if you are wrong you have lead folks astray.
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaminack wrote:
Jetze,

the Bible tells us that we as Christians are to shun the ways of the World. We are to turn from the things that the World is in love with. Is not the World in love with Ganja?


That's way too simple. "The World" also likes sex. But there are instances in which sex in not a sin and the people who condemn every form of sex would also use your reasoning.

Quote:
It seems every Rap song now days is glorifying it's use. Cypress Hill, Snoop Dog etc.


It's better when the like weed then when they like to kill other people.

Quote:
The problem with your line of reasoning is that you place your vote for credence and credibility with these examples and others instead of teaching and preaching a message of Holiness.


So because I do not want, unlike most here, judge all weedsmokers as sinners, I am in the same line as Cypris Hill and Snoop Dog and probably Britney Spears too? No, no, no....

Quote:
God has called us to be Holy. What about this issue is Holy? What about this issue even comes close to bringing glory to God?


That is really absurd. You reason as if I am convinced that smnoking herb is a sin and I "defend: it nevertheless or something. I DO NOT BELIEVE SMOKING HERB IS A UNIVERSAL SIN. So why should I be against it? You, in your mindset, have allready placed every use of ganja in the sins-corner, and so it is logical that you say to me what you say to me, but you forget that I am not convinced that it would be a sin so it is not really logical to me.

What brings glory to JAH? Well, for example that we are still conversating here. That in spite of our differences we do acknowledge Yesus Kristos as our Lord and Saviour. There are many folks who tell me they would have gotten very tired if they would be in my shoes, reasoning for months here. There are folks who tell me what they think about loz and christafari, and many who ask me why I am not attacking them/you/loz. There are folks who tell me that they do not even want to bother about having a conversation here. Perhaps my denial to tear down christafari and loz gives JAH some glory?

Quote:
Jetze we are called to stand against the World! Do you deny that? Is that not the command of God? Has not God called us to be differant and separate from the things that the world is wrapped up in? Watch MTV and BET for a day or two and see if the things spoken are godly or not. Are we supposed to look like them? Are we not supposed to be Born Again and not be in line with that mind set?


I watch MTV for about 1 1/2/ minute per half year, when I would count the one or two seconds that I watch it when I zap, which I also hardly ever do since my TV is the monitor for my MP3 player rather then the big brother's eye. There is a reason why I do not watch MTV. This reason is connected with what you describe above.

So, yeah, I am convinced that MTV is almost only about one thing: sin. But do I conclude that out of the idea that some folks on MTV, or even all folks at MTV speak about using ganja? I bet they also speak about homosexual "relations", too, yes? I bet they show all kind of pornographic material and perhaps also cokane and all that.

You can't say just because a sinner is doing it it is therefor a sin.

Quote:
I know that you are solidly convinced into your mindset on this. I know that you have put much thought into it. But is there no way that there is room in your mind for the possibility of being wrong?


I can see how one or more reasons not to smoke would apply to a lot of people. I acknowledge that, not because of MTV and all that, but simply because I see what is happenning with some people. I can also bring you to people of which you can not apply one single of the arguments. This is my problem with this anti-herb stance. I simply know too much to say it is allways wrong and I might know too little to say it is allways wrong.

Quote:
My stand point is much clearer.




Quote:
Here is how. If I am wrong my approach causes no one to be in sin. But if you are wrong you have lead folks astray.


If you are wrong, you have spied on some's freedoms, you have given them the idea they are sinning where they are not. Is that not serious? Paulus considers it serious enough to write a whole book on that (Galatians).

This is not a gamble. Sin is not a gamble.

How can I lead folks "astray" from what I say? Astray from what? Astray from the traditional churchical view? That's not wrong. I do not see where I lead people astray. I do not want to state in this public arena if I smoke or not. I do not want to say smoking is allways good for all. I have a FAQ in which I state questions people should ask themselves when they (want to) smoke herb (or drink it).

How can the following be leading people astray?

Quote:
19. I am a Christian struggling with the question if I can smoke or not. What advise can you give me?

I can only point you out to Kristos Yesus. If you are a Christian, then you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior. He will guide you. I can however give you some guidelines you can consider before you will make your decision. You can trust the Lord to guide you in this, when you sincerely ask Him.

I would like to go to the motivation behind it. Many people in the Christian World do not smoke herb but want to smoke it. So they should ask themselves: Why am I not smoking it, and why should I want to smoke it?
Some people smoke it to get revelations. I think that's dangerous, and the Lord is certainly not limiting Himself to reveal Himself only if people smoke herb.
Some people smoke it to escape reality. When Christ is your reality so to speak, for He said that He is the Truth (Reality), perhaps you should consider if your perception of reality shouldn't be a little different, for when you are a Christian, then Christ is your Reality, why then would you want to escape from Him?
Some smoke it because it is a part of their culture. They're not using it like drugs, but like a way of enjoying themselves. The Bible doesn't necessarily say that you can't drink a little bit an enjoy yourself. The people in Cana were really enjoying themselves over the wine that our Lord and Savior had given them.
So I think you should base your decision on your own relationship with God through Christ, by prayerfully testing your motives.

http://www.dubroom.org/faq/faqmessiandreadspirituality.htm#19
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 13:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze,

I believe that you do well to come and reason here. And think that those who would question you for doing so may realize that there stance on these issues are by no means as solid as yours and could not stand up to the debate. So be congratulated for your intellectual honesty. I know that we don't agree more often than we do, but you are right that God is glorified in that I do consider you are great friend, (although a very hard headed one! LOL )

So many are afraid to do what you do because they are afraid that they really don't understand the issues. They know that they have bought propaganda instead of fact.

Now to the issue. You and I see liberty quite differantly. I see it like this...

Rules are like a barrier rail on the balcony of a sky scraper. Though it may be small, a person can walk right out to the edge and feel secure. He can go out and enjoy the awesome view though high he has no fear. That is my idea of Liberty.

Your view of liberty takes away the Barrier rail. That person is not likely to go out and enjoy the view. The edge is still in the same place but your eye is on the edge where before it was the view. There is fear because you have lost the security of the railing. Before that rail brought a joy because of the freedom to go and enjoy in security. You knew exactly how far you could go in safety, but now you cannot approach the edge because you cannot tell which step is too far. Is the wind going to gust and blow against you? Is a clumsy person coming from inside? Could I slip? What about distractions that could trick me? With out the rail of rules there is no stability. The things that brought joy before are gone. They are replaced with fears and insecurity.

Now this is NOT about taking away something that is a liberty. The Word is not plain on this issue. It is not cut and dry. If you were to say I know for absolute positive as to if this sin or not you would be mistaken. It is not clear. So why try to go through all this to try to make it seem ok when you really just do not know?

I have also noticed you don't defend the Rasta stance on Ganja... That is not at all the stance that you present. Would you take the same exact stand in front of them on your site? I know that you have the FAQ and some articles, but do you explain it in such terms as not sin for every person every where? That is not the Rasta view of the Chalice, Ishence, or what ever term the use to try to bring God in pleasing the flesh. I am glad that you don't see it as a Sacrement, but what about them? They do. are they just plain wrong in making that jump?
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