FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MemberlistMemberlist    UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile    You have no new messagesYou have no new messages    Log out [ Messian Dread ]Log out [ Messian Dread ] 

HERB IS THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lion of Zion Forum Index -> Rasta and Ganja Reasoning
View previous topic :: View next topic  

DO YOU CARE ENOUGH TO RESEARCH THE FACTS?
OF COURSE, BROTHA
84%
 84%  [ 11 ]
NAHH I'M SO COMFY HERE ANYWAY
15%
 15%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 13

Author Message
mikeroots
Forum Veteran


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 827
Location: Torrington, CT USA

PostPosted: 12 Feb 2004 05:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is the medical evidence to support your claim?

Quote:
In the lack of ganja deaths vs the huge amount of alcohol deaths, for example. Despite the fact alcohol is legal.

In the lack of stupidity that is present when one drinks a lot vs the thoughtfullness that can be there when smoked ganja, to name another aspect.


Again, scripture is clear about the dangers of excessive consumption of wine and strong drink. Sure- if you want to talk about drunk driving, scerosis of the liver, premature death you'll find these all occur with excessive drinking. You say that "I" also make a comparison between wine and ganja. No, I do not. I believe you are assuming a lot by applying scriptures referring to alcohol consumption (a beverage) to smoking. That's a lot to assume and I think it's dangerous to basically say, "anywhere you see 'wine' you can substitute smoking ganja" which in essence is what you are saying, true? I am debating the effects of ganja versus alcohol.

Bill is approaching this discussion a little differently than I am and that's fine. Is it sinful? Well, if we can't reach a consensus I say let us use thw Holy Scriptures and also apply some common sense which JAH has given us. From a health standpoint, smoking is foolish and unwise. Secondly, from a spiritual standpoint I absolutely believe when one smokes ganja they are asking for trouble because there are lines that can be crossed too easily. Thirdly, there is the responsibility one has to not do anything willingly which will cause your weaker brother to stumble. I have said it before, (and I am speaking as "if" you smoke) although you live in the Netherlands you are 'global' and your brethren and sistren are not confined to the borders of your home country. You know what I mean? You have a greater responsibility and I don't think it's fair to say, "well it's legal here" and so that exempts you from the responsibility for causing a brother say in JA to get into legal/spiritual trouble because he saw that you believe it's okay as a Christian to use. Ganja use is a huge stereotype in reggae culture anyway and your stance is likely to help enable people to continue when they have doubts about and maybe even for some to begin. I think it's rather plain- abstinence is the right thing in this situation for numerous reasons.


Quote:
You allways raise these health stuff. Allways the smoking you say is wrong, but you do not speak about tea or when you do you say you have not a clear opinnion.


No, I have spoken about ganja tea (actually infusion is the proper term here). I inquired and pondered about whether consumption in tea form would be beneficial or not. I can't unequivocally say 'yes' or 'no' at this point.


OK, but our discussion should be: can a christian do something which is labeled unhealthy by the health industry?


Quote:
Sure- ABUSING alcohol is harmful, but consumption of alcohol within the biblical parameters JAH has given us isn't harmful. On the contrary it is beneficial. Smoking, in any quantity is harmful. Smoke particles being deposited in the lungs is harmful.


Quote:
But where do you find the biblical evidence (much more important then the scientist) to back your statement JAH's commandments about alcohol deal with health? On the contrary, you can see that allways when there is negative talk tabout alcohol in the Bible it is about the effect and the matter of sobrieity. Now this sobrieity does not neccesarily mean the abstanance for a little [b]makes the heart glad[b] and too much "makes you a mocker" or disables one from thinkin g. These are the biblical reasons nopt to want to drink alcohol. Mind you, not because it is unhealthy. Sure, the positive health aspect is mentioned as a reason fur using it, but it is not mentioned as a reason not to use it. Paulus did not live a healthy life, neither did John the Baptist.

I didn't say the bible says good things about wine regarding health. It does say 'wine maketh the glad the heart of man' and 'a little wine is good for the stomach'. Maybe there is more said regarding health benefits of wine- I don't know because I haven't done a study on it. I don't believe that our Lord and Saviour would have turned water into wine or drank it himself it was harmful. Wine is shown in the bible to be used for social and medicinal use and I believe it is no accident that light to moderate wine consumption has been proven to be beneficial to one's health. Of course, wine consumption is something one has to be very careful about because it can be 'raging and a mocker' and can also cause a weaker bredren to fall IF IT IS NOT USED RESPONSIBLY. For these reasons, many choose to abstain altogether.

Quote:
I believe anything which does this directly by its use should be avoided. I would appreciate some biblical support for smoking before further attempts are made to equate it with wine drinking or alcohol consumption in general.


Quote:
You yourself make the comparision on occasions (and you quickly add you that allways that you do not compare them but still you do), so why should I not do it? Ofcourse the comparison is there because the same biblical principals apply.

You can say you want proof from the Bible then smoking is not a sin, but still you do not ask for biblical questions when it comes to my biblical intepretation. You raise this health thing again.

It doesn't say in the Bible that you can or can not smoke. Still it was done in those days. It is neither condemned nor is it promoted. Doesn't that make to make the conclusion that other biblical principals will have to apply?


I think I covered these points in the first portion of my response. Maybe not.

I also think it is quite conceivable that heathen nation(s) were the ones who began smoking. It would certainly make sense in the spiritual context that they would indeed use it as pharmakeia. Maybe as medicine as well, I don't know.
_________________
LION OF JUDAH SOUNDS: REGGAE RADIO INTERNATIONAL INNA CHRISTIAN STYLEE!!
www.live365.com/stations/78897
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Messian Dread
Forum Veteran


Joined: 27 Jul 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: Fryslân

PostPosted: 12 Feb 2004 13:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings. A long reply, I did not cover everything, got to do a lot of things and will probably have lots of spelling mistakes too...

WARRIOR
Quote:
Messian I have a question (again) . For example, I do not have a problem with the fact that I or someone else may have a cup of coffee during a church service or a bible study.
But (in your reasonings you have said that herb can be compared to coffee) would it not be sinful to smoke ANYTHING during times of study or worship?


I don't know. When I reason with Iah's there's smoke there many times, but there's not really people who have a problem with that.

It all boils down in which culture you are, I guess. I see people smoking herb daily. When I go to a dance or concert I see people smoking. When I visit people I see them smoking. I don't even see it anymore, seen?

Quote:
When do we say it is a "churchical thing" verses a "JAH thing"?


-1- When extra-biblical rules are added, thus reducing the liberty that JAH gives us.
-2- When the system is more important then the message.
-3- When babylonian traditions (such as the so called reverend or christmas) are being viewed as integral part of the believe.
-4- when the words "the church" are not used to describe the totality of Yesus Followers, but still applied.


JAH SON
Quote:
To some people I know in JA, smoking ganja is truely a Sacrament


What is the definition of a sacramentt? I know, to simply give thanks and praise while chalice blaze doesn't make it a sacrament.


BLAMINACK
Quote:
The rules that I am refering to are, I believe God's rules and that is explained fully in the other threads regarding it being sinful or not. I see it as drunkeness, but we have covered all of that. We just fundementally disagree with each other on this issue.


I guess we do.... I guess JAH placed us in two different places too, where it is obvious that with your stance I couldn't do what I do, and with my stance you couldn't do what you do?

GOSPELKID
Quote:
these are questions not facts.....will someone prepare to answer logically or even spiritually with back up of scripture without twisting them..

And what do you think we are doing for the last few MONTHS? I think you're too lazy to read what is written for you bring up all argumentation that has been dealt with in-depth. Really in-depth, with loads and loads of thoughts from all sides. I would like to refer you to the various threads here and read them.


MIKE ROOTS
Quote:
You say that "I" also make a comparison between wine and ganja. No, I do not. I believe you are assuming a lot by applying scriptures referring to alcohol consumption (a beverage) to smoking. That's a lot to assume and I think it's dangerous to basically say, "anywhere you see 'wine' you can substitute smoking ganja" which in essence is what you are saying, true? I am debating the effects of ganja versus alcohol.


I am too lazy to find the spot for you, but you have made the comparision somewhere and quickly added the words "not that I am making a comparision". Never mind, you know. I just though it was a bit funny, that's all.

I think that the effects of ganja and wine can be compared biblically. It is both a substance that when used mature can be used for enjoyment of the heart, and when abused it can lead to drunkeness. Because the biblical definitions fit, in my opinnion.

Quote:
(....)if we can't reach a consensus I say let us use thw Holy Scriptures and also apply some common sense which JAH has given us.


I agree.

Quote:
(...) I absolutely believe when one smokes ganja they are asking for trouble because there are lines that can be crossed too easily.


But what do you do when this doesn't happen?

Quote:
(...) although you live in the Netherlands you are 'global' and your brethren and sistren are not confined to the borders of your home country. You know what I mean? You have a greater responsibility and I don't think it's fair to say, "well it's legal here" and so that exempts you from the responsibility for causing a brother say in JA to get into legal/spiritual trouble because he saw that you believe it's okay as a Christian to use.


Do you think it is fair to say what you say, when you read good what I write? Do you really think that someone can start to smoke herb because of what I write? Ofcourse, everyone knows that ganja is considered a reason to make people visit jail in certain countries. I think you are reasoning from a certain perspective here. I am not into mental slavery. I am not into making people into Messian Dread followers or whatever. I am into trying to get people to think for themselves.
Globally, I think that more and more countries will legalize collie herb.
In Europe, most people will not get into trouble when they smoke. They just got to do it with care.
In Canada you can smoke, too.
In the USA it is considered "weapon of mass destruction" (I am NOT kidding here) and I think that that is a wrong law which should not be supported.
I wouldn't even show a yankee the way to a coffeeshop, do you know that?

Quote:
Ganja use is a huge stereotype in reggae culture anyway and your stance is likely to help enable people to continue when they have doubts about and maybe even for some to begin. I think it's rather plain- abstinence is the right thing in this situation for numerous reasons.


Well, I disagree. You say the same as Bill concerning this, and I disagree with that. I say babylon got to legalize herb for a number of reasons. We shouldn't accept the prohibition for it makes too many people suffer. I do not care if people smoke weed, let them smoke it if they can do it, and let there be many that will fight against the prohibition. For the prohobition is the real evil.

Quote:
I didn't say the bible says good things about wine regarding health. It does say 'wine maketh the glad the heart of man' and 'a little wine is good for the stomach'.


That second is a statement concerning healthy aspect of wine....

Quote:
Maybe there is more said regarding health benefits of wine- I don't know because I haven't done a study on it.


Me neither....

Quote:
I don't believe that our Lord and Saviour would have turned water into wine or drank it himself it was harmful.


Change "harmfull" into "sinfull" and I'm youre man....

Quote:
Wine is shown in the bible to be used for social and medicinal use and I believe it is no accident that light to moderate wine consumption has been proven to be beneficial to one's health. Of course, wine consumption is something one has to be very careful about because it can be 'raging and a mocker' and can also cause a weaker bredren to fall IF IT IS NOT USED RESPONSIBLY. For these reasons, many choose to abstain altogether.


All these things can be applied to weed smoking or drinking too.


Quote:
I also think it is quite conceivable that heathen nation(s) were the ones who began smoking. It would certainly make sense in the spiritual context that they would indeed use it as pharmakeia. Maybe as medicine as well, I don't know.


Well, there were smokers of herb ages before there was even a mention of "Israel". It is also called the poor people's champagne and I guewss you forgot to mention "enjoyment" as a reason for using it....
_________________
One Love,
Messian Dread.
Webmaster, http://www.dubroom.com/
Personal Site: http://messiandread.dubroom.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blaminack
Moderator


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1927
Location: Panama City Fl

PostPosted: 12 Feb 2004 13:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

We both know that smoking Ganja is not found in the Bible and there much made to connect it to alcohol. But the question has dawned on me while getting ready for work, is it not totally possible that smoking ganja is not mentioned Biblically because the practice was SO steeped in Pagan ritual Pharmekia that the need mention was covered only in the commands to rid your self of Idols? In other words that was seen as the only use for it in a Spiritual sense. For example, when God told the hebrews to turn from idols it mentions braking off the gold that they wore. This is seen as just a part of the paganism. I believe that this flows right in with the form of worship offered to idols, so the to mention it in a positive sense was not needed, because for the follower of God there was none.... Thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
warrior
Forum Veteran


Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 420
Location: Between Canaan and Egypt

PostPosted: 12 Feb 2004 19:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messian Quote: "I guess we do.... I guess JAH placed us in two different places too, where it is obvious that with your stance I couldn't do what I do, and with my stance you couldn't do what you do? "


I feel this statement is one of the truest (lack of a better term) that I have read. JAH uses us to bring him glory,right???!!!! HOW HUMBLING IS THAT??!!!

Wether we witness,preach,teach to ganja smoking people or people who don't smoke we are still being used by GOD.

If one has a "problem" with those who use weed then best not to show JAH grace by condemning them. Yet one who does not see ganja as a "problem" is best to not tell people who don't smoke it is "O.K" so not to cause them to stumble.

Does that make sense?

Does it make sense to say that these reasonings(Blaminack and Messian) can both be correct because both are bringing/giving glory and thanks to GOD??????

1PETER 4:10Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.

As for the healing of the nations I still would like to have biblical proof that herb is the healing of the nations from JAH SON. And not just your opinion.Can you show where it says herb "IS" or are you just telling people what YOU want them to hear? The bible says that CHRIST will heal and that HE alone. Otherwise this reasoning that you have is not valid.
_________________
Isaiah 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Messian Dread
Forum Veteran


Joined: 27 Jul 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: Fryslân

PostPosted: 13 Feb 2004 03:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaminack wrote:
We both know that smoking Ganja is not found in the Bible and there much made to connect it to alcohol.


yes.

Quote:
But the question has dawned on me while getting ready for work, is it not totally possible that smoking ganja is not mentioned Biblically because the practice was SO steeped in Pagan ritual Pharmekia that the need mention was covered only in the commands to rid your self of Idols?


No I do not think so because the people, normal "john doe" (correct?) used it too. It has allways been also for the normal people as relaxation.

Quote:
In other words that was seen as the only use for it in a Spiritual sense. For example, when God told the hebrews to turn from idols it mentions braking off the gold that they wore. This is seen as just a part of the paganism.


Okay, Jah never forbade the use of gold, even stronger He applied it in the service to Himself too. The use for the occult things have never been the only thing. People have been using it as relaxation or enjoyment too.

Quote:
I believe that this flows right in with the form of worship offered to idols, so the to mention it in a positive sense was not needed, because for the follower of God there was none.... Thoughts?


Yes, I do have thoughts about that. We would have to dig into the historical "facts" but as far as i know, ganja has been used by normal people where it's medicinal use was also known and ofcourse the metaphysical or spiritual.

I have a counter-question, why I would also not join your assumption. When JAH wrote the Bible, He did know in advance what was going to happen. He layed down principals in the scripture. We can read the stories and consider them accurate history (which it is), but as Paulus teaches us, these things were done as a teaching for us. We can read principals, getting to know our Lord better and how He deals with us. I would say that JAH JAH knew we were going to have this discussion, so to speak. We must be able to find a principal in the Bible which we can apply to our own lifes when it comes to herb and whatever other subject you can think off. Some things are pretty obvious, like porneia and all that. Other things are less obvious, like herb.

warrior wrote:
Yet one who does not see ganja as a "problem" is best to not tell people who don't smoke it is "O.K" so not to cause them to stumble.


Why should they stumble? Why are they not smoking?

Quote:
Does it make sense to say that these reasonings(Blaminack and Messian) can both be correct because both are bringing/giving glory and thanks to GOD??????


Eerrr... No, not completely. We do disagree fundamentally in this issue. I think the issue is that Blaminack sees no situation in which someone consumes herb without committing a sin and I do. The rest of the debate is not really to-the-core-point but they are steps that make us come to this rather different conclusion.

In other words, we can only be "both right" if we would both acknowledge the personal situation in our opinnion and the possibility of a different conclusoion in a different (possible) situation.

Right, Bill?
_________________
One Love,
Messian Dread.
Webmaster, http://www.dubroom.com/
Personal Site: http://messiandread.dubroom.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blaminack
Moderator


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1927
Location: Panama City Fl

PostPosted: 13 Feb 2004 04:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze,

I cannot find enjoyment in and of it's self as a legit biblical motive for anything in the Bible. That really boils down to situational ethics, that I see as a total clash with Scripture.

I believe that yes the princibles that apply to wine apply to other things.

I believe also that God is glorified most in our ability to debate and remain friendly.

I don't believe that HAVE to agree on ever issue. Just the need for salvation through Jesus Christ.

I think that to not consider my last post FULLY would be willful shortsightedness. I am by no means saying that is the total answer but I think it is a very solid plausibility which merits consideration. If in fact ganja use was as common as you seem to think there should be something mentioned about it in some historical context. Where is the evidence that anyone in the area of the Biblical setting ever smoked ganja? (though I am inclined to believe it was used under the realm of Pharmekia by Shamans, Witchdoctors etc.) Why do you automatically assume that it was used by common man? It is just as likely that the use by anyone other than a "Tribal Elder" or some such thing may have been Taboo. This, with out substanciation is just a guess....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
gospelkid



Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 33
Location: england

PostPosted: 13 Feb 2004 08:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

so u think i am too lazy..to read the threads..really..... its great to see your heart shining through in our debate...works every time

one thing i know is that blackinack uses articulate uses of scripture when reasoning.......the gunja smoking issue is clear...but when one wants to smoke it they will make any case to keep on do so.

nuff said from me on the subject...who have ears to hear let them hear
_________________
love the lord with all your heart and prove it aswell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Messian Dread
Forum Veteran


Joined: 27 Jul 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: Fryslân

PostPosted: 13 Feb 2004 12:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do you automatically assume that it was used by common man? It is just as likely that the use by anyone other than a "Tribal Elder" or some such thing may have been Taboo. This, with out substanciation is just a guess....


Well, I wasn't there, in ancient times. But I have read stuff about it, and I read that ganja is used throughout the ages by the normal "john doe" (?) as enjoyment.

By the way I would say enjoyment is a perfectly biblical sound way of passing through time.
_________________
One Love,
Messian Dread.
Webmaster, http://www.dubroom.com/
Personal Site: http://messiandread.dubroom.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lion of Zion Forum Index -> Rasta and Ganja Reasoning All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17  Next
Page 13 of 17
Stop watching this topic
 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.8 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group