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How To Witness To A Christafarian
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This book is a welcome addition to the literature on Christianity and Rastafari
  Yes!
  No, It is subervise literature
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perfectloveinH.I.M.
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 02:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

blessed love,
deh dialouge dat ones want between Rases who view H.I.M. as deh Almighty and 1st advent Christians should in essence come down to principles. Ini have a 1st advent Christian bredren who Ini would give I life for but deh only difference between us is deh way we end our prayers. deh concepts of church/body/fellowship/prayer/holding a meditation/do unto others/livity/shining unu light are deh foundation for both walks but deh manner and name in which deh are done becomes deh issue. II Yohn 7 says dat "many deceivers are entered into deh world, who confess not dat Je-sus Christ is come in deh flesh. dis is a deceiver and an antichrist." now how would ones feel if Ini apply Ini knowledge and replace Je-sus wid Haile Selassie I? more dan a few of you would be vexed or feel dat Ini am changing deh scriptures or blaspheming!
deh point is at ones get caught up in deh name instead of deh message/instructions dat deh name brought forth. if Ini am a coach, which I am, Ini would rather my players to rememba and utilize my instructions rather speak my name whenever a sports conversation occurs. Ini would rather deh validity of Ini instructions cause ones to ask "who taught you dis?", den deh name becomes pertinent.
we need mo heartical reasonings because in deh end dat is what Jah judges.
Hail H.I.M.inperfectlove
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"being 2nd advent Christian and feeling deh persecution of wolves in sheep's clothing masked as true Christians, Ini don't feel de need fi force Haile Selassie I on ones but to stay eternally cognizant dat salvation is summed up in love for I-manity.
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JuHok
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 11:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that whole thing yesterday and it was very interesting. There were some points that has some problems with them. Like not defining who are the "christafarian", like are they the ignorant christafari fans who dress up to look like a RasTa, not knowing what's really going on of what? Ofcourse next problem accures when you put them all in the same box, but I guess that's a must to get an overall picture of the situation. The thing that I now would like to read is Mohrs answer to this booklet as it is really mostly about him and his works and ideas.
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 13:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it goes on. Nobody is questioning my analysis of Christafarianism and Christafarians. Everybody seems to agree that what I describe is rejectable.

And that is the point which I try to make throughout the entire essay.

The denial is more that everybody is hasting themselves to disidentify from this description when it comes to identifying themselves.

Let me please explain this.

Talawa: the mistake you make is exactly what Christafarianism wants. You equate Christafarianism with Christianity. Christafari constantly repeats how they are the victims of terrorist Rastas who hate their being a Christian.

I say there is a huge difference between Christafari and Christianity. Withion Christianity you will find Christafarians and Rastafarians, but you will not find Christafarians in Rastafari and you will not find Rastafarians in Christafari.

Now it is Christafarianism that denies the faith opf their brothers and sisters in Rastafari by allways making the seperation Rasta-Christianity. You see it here ALL the time. This is the mind set. You have christians and you have rastas.

But this is the problem.

Because this all is not about Christianity vs Rastafari.

This is about Christafarianism, using both Christianity and Rastafari for their own goals.

And this is documented.

But the mind set in which the evangelicals are in ensures that it takes a while before this is all realized.

You speak about "wolves in sheeps clothing" but you can not say that I directly call Christafari that. I describe what the Romans do and what the New Agers do, which is the same thing as what Mark Mohr himself calls "creating a culture in our fan base called christafarianism" (Literal quote).

As with many things in the essay, I just provide some information and I will not tell you what to think. I think you got to check out what I wrote, check out the links, I have mirrors on my site and please check that too. Check out the quotes, check them in context, and I guarantee you that not only will you find that I have not taken anything out of context, you will find even worse things than the ones I mention.

Juhok:
Christafari (TM, did you know?), Christafarianism and Christafarians. Neither of the three terms I invented. All of them come out of the creative mind of Mark Mohr.

Christafari is the HQ, the roots, the center. From Christafari came Christafarianism, which are obviously the meditations and philosophies which explain the existance of Christafari and a proposal of a certain bible interpretation which people can accept as treaching. After all, Mark Mohr is a pastor. And it is obvious that the ones who are positively towards this christafarianism are the christafarians.

I did not invent this, I just documented this.

You say I do not define the Christafarians. I think you meant to say, identify them by name. Which is a thing I will not do publically.

With two exceptions, but then we speak about people who associate themselves with Christafari by performing some work for the HQ as "moderators" on the field where Christafari communicates with their fan base and where some criticasters sometimes are.

But you can not say I do not define Christafarian. The only thing you can do is checking yourself and realize that what I say has no value, but what JAH says is value!

Here I define Christafarians.

Since Christafari calls their fans and following "Christafarians ",
http://dubroom.org/christafari/page08.htm


And where we saw a rise of “Heavenly Metallers” in the 1980’s, Christian Heavy Metal lovers looking just like their Satanistic counterparts, today we see a carefully crafted rise of Christafarians, Christian Reggae lovers “looking just like” their Rastafarian “counterparts”.
The Christafarians , or the “fan base” of Christafari. They hardly know anything about Rastafari or reggae. They listen to Christafari and read the statements in articles and on websites and booklets published by Christafari themselves and that is their source of knowledge and information.
http://dubroom.org/christafari/page09.htm
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 13:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok you said that no one is disputing the "facts" of your essay and that no one wants to be a part of it.

Here is the truth. Some of the points were valid, some were not. You make several things part of this that are purposly disgusting!

The footnote that you included about Black Uhuru being made into white Uhuru was out of line as it was not made by anyone here, or Christafari and some people are going to think that it was said here. I know that you did it just to plant that idea.

On Pg 7 you quote Selassie COMPLETELY incorrectly, but you do have agenda to follow...
By saying that Selassie said that only certain Rastas believed that He was God is not true. The fact is that he said that he MET with certain Rastafarians. To spin this into saying that even Selassie saw that some didn't worship Him as Christ is a gross and purposeful error. But you did the same thing in relation to the Twelve Tribes Members Email quote that Mark sent. What is your purpose in twisting what Selassie said? It is so that you can make an incorrect point.

Further more, on page 7 You say that the faith of these Rastas who believe Selassie to be God is directed at Jah... Let us examine that for a minute. If a person comes along and starts performing miracles and preaching love and untiy and eventually finds himself being worshiped as Christ and later reveals himself as the Antichrist. Is that worship also directed to Jah if they think that they are worshiping Christ.

Denying some ones faith when we say that a person needs the truth of Christ is not what happens. Yes of course that person NEEDS truth and light, but faith is not their problem. Apply the same idea that you have towards a Jehovahs Witness, or Mormon, and the idea that you have here falls about. Their faith is by no means denied, but rather what they have put thier faith in! Please explain to me what you tell a Bobo Shanty about who Christ is.

On pg 8 you said that they are not worshiping a wrong God but worshiping God wrong... really? Again for the obvious reasons about I reject that argument. Now for this reason I ALWAYS make a distinction between those that believe in Selasse as Christ and those that do not. Why? For the purposes of accuracy.

Now for the idea that I am a convinced "Christafarian". Have you ever seen a picture of me? Explain how I have tried to appear as a Sheep in Wolves clothing!! Every one that knows me, know s up front, who I am and what I am about. But you say that is about earing down Rasta. THere is nothing further from the truth. The ONLY agenda on my part is to show those that don't know the truth, the Christ of the Bible to people who need Him.

If your essay had been about the unbiblical nature of Churchian culture, and the commercializing of CCM, or the many things about the TBN influenced Christian thought then I would have stood up and cheered about your effort. But Jetze, you have done what you accuse me of and that it lumping all together in one heap and saying that each individual is the same.

I am still amazed that you included the quote from the website http://www.unn13.com/

Are you REALLY saying that this is true Rasta teaching? If so then much of your article has to be thrown out...

Please all go and read this website, and then reread the essay and ask your self if an obvious agenda is not seen. Jetze the man who runs this website came here and proclaimed that he was pronoucing a Jihad against Mark Mohr and wanted him dead... So please all go read the ideas that Jetze is saying are Rasta... http://www.unn13.com/intro.html

You WILL NOT FIND ME SAYING THIS IS RASTA, and I am thinking that most Rastas will not either.
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JuHok
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 14:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

MD: I like specific lists when defining something. No I wasn't waiting for you to point out the christafarian people, like "You and you and you are...". I just wanted a more specific defination of what's a "basic christafari" like. If I understood it correctly "a basic christafari" in your opinion is:

a) A Christafari (the band) fan
b) A christian
c) Looking like a RasTa
d) Liking reggae
e) Not really knowing that much about RasTafari
f) Getting all of the information about RasTafari from LOZ
g) Believing in the division between RasTafari and Christianity
h) Ignorant to the facts about modern day RasTafari
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Jah Pickney
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 14:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill makes some good points.

I'll come back a little later (got to go to church).
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Talawa



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Posts: 59
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all MD, I do not equate Christafarianism with Christianity. This is a misunderstanding. My own understanding of the christian faith was taught to me through followers of Christ, reading the Bible and praying. Christafari´s music and lyrics was an extra dimension to what I already believed. Their lyrics have inspired me a lot.

MD you wrote: "I say there is a huge difference between Christafari and Christianity."

Is that not the same thing with Rastafari and Christianity? Or should I equate Rastafari and Christianity?

Then you wrote: "Now it is Christafarianism that denies the faith of their brothers and sisters in Rastafari by allways making the seperation Rasta -Christianity. You see it here ALL the time. This is the mind set. You have christians and you have rastas."

Personally I see everyone that confess Yeshua as their one and only saviour as my brother and sister. My faith is also that there are even more people that I am not conscious of who is my brothers and sisters because Jah sees what´s in their hearts and I do not.

"Because this all is not about Christianity vs Rastafari."

When I wrote; Rasta vs Christianity? it was my way to "underline" and question the whole thing. Is this really what´s it all about?

MD: "You speak about "wolves in sheeps clothing" but you can not say that I directly call Christafari that."

No I don´t say that you do! But some rastas writing at forums do. The thing seems, for these rastas, to be that if you are not a black person from Jamaica then you should not wear dreads or play reggae. Because that is rasta culture and thats it! Am I wrong? What about the other artists I mentioned? What is the major difference between them and Christafari?

MD: "As with many things in the essay, I just provide some information and I will not tell you what to think. I think you got to check out what I wrote, check out the links, I have mirrors on my site and please check that too."

I really appreciate your work MD even if I don´t agree at times. I will study your essay carefully. I do also think that your website is very interesting in many aspects.

Jah guidance!

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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2004 15:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why you are not quoting me is because you can't quote me wrong. And you can't. I can quote you wrong.

Quote:
The footnote that you included about Black Uhuru being made into white Uhuru was out of line as it was not made by anyone here, or Christafari and some people are going to think that it was said here. I know that you did it just to plant that idea.


Let's quote the footnote, shall we?

Quote:
"Black" and "White" in reggae-music is often referring to the colour of human skin. In the world of Satanism, in essence a white religion in its present existence, "black" refers to the devil and "white" refers to God. I once heard a Christian from the Christian Metal scene pray to God, that "Black Uhuru" might become "White Uhuru". This was one of the funniest prayers I had ever heard thus far, be it not so tragically.
http://dubroom.org/christafari/page06.htm#_ftn1



This was an illustration of the ignorance towards Rastafari Culture in the Christian Heavy Metal Culture. I am saying that this culture can not be a valid inspiration for "methods of communicating" with Rastafarians. That is my point.

Quote:
By saying that Selassie said that only certain Rastas believed that He was God is not true. The fact is that he said that he MET with certain Rastafarians. To spin this into saying that even Selassie saw that some didn't worship Him as Christ is a gross and purposeful error.


Yes, he said "I met certain Rastafarians and I have told them clearly that I am a man and that man should not worship man". So? What's your point? That I say that Selassie acknowledged that there are Rastafarians who do not believe him to be God? The fact is that there are Rastafarians who do not believe Selassie to be God. Unless you want to deny that there are Rastafarians who do not believe to be Jah, or unless you want to say that Haile Selassie did not know this, I do not see an argument in your words.


Quote:
But you did the same thing in relation to the Twelve Tribes Members Email quote that Mark sent. What is your purpose in twisting what Selassie said? It is so that you can make an incorrect point


I quoted the 12 tribes as it came. What is shown is that Mark Mohr in every publication I get under my eyes, including his work christ and tafari which he plans to release in the future, says that Rastas believe Selassie to be God. He apologizes and in his few moments on this website may write an occasional rectification but in the public the slandering continues.

You can see that Mark Mohr speaks about Rastafarians and he says that is because "many, not all" or "most" in his idea fit the definition he gives. So what I quote wrong?

Shouldn't I say that Selassie knew that there are Rastas who do not believe in him as Jah? Or do you want me to continue the christafarlie?

Why do you think Christafari says that Christian Rastafarians are deceivers and yet in private mail acknowledges that he misrepresents the faith of these very same people?

Why doesn't he aopologies in public, throughout the christian media he knows to find so easily otherwise, that he misrepresents the faith of his brethren all the time, calling them deceivers? What is the deceit? The deceit is in the double tongue of Christafari.

Quote:
You say that the faith of these Rastas who believe Selassie to be God is directed at Jah... Let us examine that for a minute. If a person comes along and starts performing miracles and preaching love and untiy and eventually finds himself being worshiped as Christ and later reveals himself as the Antichrist. Is that worship also directed to Jah if they think that they are worshiping Christ.


That is your opinnion. You describe a false teacher who consciously preaches a false teaching and what will happen to his followers. I just know that Selassie is not against Yesus, and that Rastafarians are not against Yesus. I haven't seen Selassie revealed as the antichrist. I haven't seen him doing anything to teach that he is Christ. I know what Yesus says to people who are not against Him. They are before Him. I know what people will hear when they have even given a drop of goodness for the least of His brethren (we).

Quote:
Denying some ones faith when we say that a person needs the truth of Christ is not what happens. Yes of course that person NEEDS truth and light, but faith is not their problem. Apply the same idea that you have towards a Jehovahs Witness, or Mormon, and the idea that you have here falls about. Their faith is by no means denied, but rather what they have put thier faith in!


It's simple. If someone believes that Yesus is saying a thing, a thing which He did not say, does this someone believe Yesus wrong or in a wrong Yesus?

Quote:
Please explain to me what you tell a Bobo Shanty about who Christ is.


Well the same as what I would tell you.

Quote:
On pg 8 you said that they are not worshiping a wrong God but worshiping God wrong... really? Again for the obvious reasons about I reject that argument. Now for this reason I ALWAYS make a distinction between those that believe in Selasse as Christ and those that do not. Why? For the purposes of accuracy.


Tell Christafari to make that exact same distinction in the media. They got a lot of wrongs to right. Tell that to yourselves each time you use the term "rastas". Yes, for the purpose of accuracy.

Ofcourse you can speak about "the Rastas" but you can not say "the Rasta believes Selassie to be God".

Quote:
Now for the idea that I am a convinced "Christafarian". Have you ever seen a picture of me?


You can deny being a Christafarian but with that you admit the wrongness of Christafarianism in itself.

So pick your choice and act.....

You are a convinced Christafarian because you work for Christafari as a moderator on this forum where the message of Christafari meets the public online. That is ofcourse a clear indication that you like to associate yourself with Christafari. You choose to work for Christafari where there are also other Christian groups with Reggae that could use your works so much more then the work you do here. Whenever I critisize Christafari you will come with a defense of Christafari.

Quote:
Explain how I have tried to appear as a Sheep in Wolves clothing!!


(see previous reply to others)

Quote:
Every one that knows me, know s up front, who I am and what I am about. But you say that is about earing down Rasta. THere is nothing further from the truth. The ONLY agenda on my part is to show those that don't know the truth, the Christ of the Bible to people who need Him.


Oh yes I agree you are much more verbal then some others and that you are not afraid to hide your opinnion and I respect you for doing so. But when you think that the reason why Christafari walks and talks and looks like a Rasta is a valid one, you do support a philosophy that I think is using that particular method which you describe.

Again, this is not about sharing the Gospel. This is about the reason why Christafari walks and talks and looks like a Rasta. And the two are different. That is another one of my points in my essay.


Quote:
If your essay had been about the unbiblical nature of Churchian culture, and the commercializing of CCM, or the many things about the TBN influenced Christian thought then I would have stood up and cheered about your effort. But Jetze, you have done what you accuse me of and that it lumping all together in one heap and saying that each individual is the same.


I am happy you see it as an accusation! Where I found Mark Mohrs written confession to the accusation, you deny it. So you see the badness.
I challenge you to put your words to action for you would have stood up and cheered after reading my essay. Because Christafari is actively doing what you say you would have stood up and cheered for if exposed.

Quote:
I am still amazed that you included the quote from the website http://www.unn13.com/
Are you REALLY saying that this is true Rasta teaching? If so then much of your article has to be thrown out...


Now here we see why you do not quote me wrong. For if you would, it would be clear that I anticipated this when I wrote the text. I will quote it.

There are many artists without any affiliation to the movement of Rastafari using the language and the symbols nevertheless, for commercial gain .

Quote:
These people are called "riding along the Rastaman bandwagon ".

In a way, Christafarianism is doing the same thing.

And this doesn’t go unnoticed.

One Rasta website describes Christafarianism like this: (using) “the image/ideology of Rastafari to denounce Haile Selassie the father of the order to convert Rasta to the religion of a fictitious Christ is a crime against the Rastafari movement .[10]”

These are really hard words! Hard to swallow, and some might even think that this judgment is coming from a militant and extreme faction within Rastafari and would therefore not represent the common sentiment within the movement.

But every Rastafarian that I asked, or heard, has this same reaction to Christafarianism.

Without even one exception!

http://dubroom.org/christafari/page06.htm

Quote:
Please all go and read this website, and then reread the essay and ask your self if an obvious agenda is not seen. Jetze the man who runs this website came here and proclaimed that he was pronoucing a Jihad against Mark Mohr and wanted him dead... So please all go read the ideas that Jetze is saying are Rasta... http://www.unn13.com/intro.html


I am saying that they are "a militant and extreme faction within Rastafari "

Quote:
You WILL NOT FIND ME SAYING THIS IS RASTA, and I am thinking that most Rastas will not either.


I am not saying that they represent the view of Rastafari either. But they do in this case of accusing Christafari of a crime against Rasta. It's the same with Buju.

Instead of trying to find out just why people get so mad at Christafari,you go and say that hatret is wrong and a sin. Ofcourse it is wrong. Ofcourse it is ridiculous to want Mark Mohr dead. Ofcourse the majority of Rastafrians will not want him dead either. I have already stated I call them a militant and extreme faction within Rastafari. And just as much as I think Christafari does not represent Christianity, I think they do not represent Rastafri. But the fact is that in this point they do speak the words that are in the hearts of all Rasta. and then I am just talking about what I quoted in my essay.
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