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How To Witness To A Christafarian
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This book is a welcome addition to the literature on Christianity and Rastafari
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  No, It is subervise literature
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2004 12:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Messian Dread"]If you volunteer as moderator for people who call some Iahs in Kristos deceivers and you yourself do not think they are deceivers you at least got a credibility problem. Ofcourse it's working for Christafari. Could you look that word "work" up in your dictionairy?/quote]

Credibility among men is not what I seek. I seek to give some one else the blessing of knowledge of Christ. Will you admit that there are those that do not have that knowledge? Let's us not strain at gnats here. There are some that have knowledge of the true Christ and some do not. That is true in the Chruch, and it is true in every place in the world. So I ask, should the Gospel not be preached in every part of the world to every creature, for the sake of not offendeding some one who has heard the message? That is like saying I will not feed the starving people in Africa that are suffering through a famine because some Africans have plenty. True love and compassion tells us to do otherwise. Staying with this analogy, why not get the ones that are not starving to help? Unfortunatly we go around and around in circles while people are dying. This is a matter of life and death.
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Jah Pickney
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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2004 14:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
JP, what is more important. The "image" that JAH has of us or the "image" that people have of us? If all people are wrong should I be wrong?


For your own salvation it is the "image" that Jah has, but for the salvation of others it is the "image" that people have.

The deception I refer to is not in the words themselves but in the representation. People will be and have been lead astray. The bible says the evidence of someones salvation is the fruit.

To answer your question

Quote:
-1- Are there Rastafarians who do not believe Selassie to be Jah and who do believe in Yesus Kristos as their Lord and Savior?


Sure there could be a saved Rastaman, but if he truly was saved don't you think he would start to change up his representation for the sake of the gospel? I'm not saying they'd have to cut locks, or abandon their heritage and culutre, or run way from reggae music, or dash way red, gold and green. These are all cultural aspects that are fine to associate with, but including those and putting Selassie on a pedistol and smoking ganja and calling out the name Rastafari even to the point of calling onself
a Rastaman can be very misleading to onlookers.

I beleive the gospel should be presented in a very open and simple way so as not to create confusion.

I must say when I looked at your website MD, I thought you were pure Selassie worshipping Rasta, even after reading all the material I was unsure where you stood.
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2004 17:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jah Pickney wrote:
By my question is if you do not believe Selassie to be Jah why continue to call yourself Rastafarian when all around the world what seems to be synonomous with Rastafari is that very thing. Although there is much more to Rastafarianism, the things that people all over the world have come to associate with it are the worship of Selassie as deity and the use of marijuana. So could it not be misleading to refer to oneself as such?

I do not mean to accuse of deception, but unintentional deception perhaps. For instance, if I were to call myself a buddist everyone here would automatically assume that I worship buddah and pracitce the elements that go along with Buddism. But what if I were a buddist that believes Christ, the son of God is the only way to salvation through His death and ressurection. And I had put my faith in Yesus. Well then really I wouldn't be a Buddist! So calling myself a Buddist when in fact I am not can be misleading. No?


Maybe this will help:

Buddhists do not worship Buddha. In fact, one of the teachings of the Buddha is "Do not follow me, follow my dharma" (dharma here refers to his teaching, the path to which he points). Contrary to what many Westerners think (some believe Buddhists are atheists, others think Buddhists worship Buddha[s]), Buddhism is basically silent on the question of whether there is a God. It is possible, according to my studies, to be both an atheist and a Buddhist, both a theist and a Buddhist, or both a polytheist and a Buddhist.

I think there is a certain analogy here. You said: "if I were to call myself a buddist everyone here would automatically assume that I worship buddah." But their assumption would be wrong, because it would be based on misinformation about the true nature of Buddhism. Likewise, when you ask: "if you do not believe Selassie to be Jah why continue to call yourself Rastafarian when all around the world what seems to be synonomous with Rastafari is that very thing," I think the proper answer would be, "that may be the way it seems to the uninformed, but it is not necessarily true."

We must not make assumptions about what defines Rastafari. Rastafarians should define Rastafari. In my experience, Rastas have incredibly varied definitions of Rastafari, which lends support to some of Messian Dread's ideas.

Now here's an interesting point. I actually know some Christians who believe the Buddha was truly enlightened by Christ. For these Christians, the Buddha has a very important place within their Christian theology. For them, the Buddha is a type and ikon of Christ, and all the teaching of the Buddha points to Christ.

Aren't my Christian-Buddhist friends a bit like Twelve Tribes Rastas? Most Twelve Tribesmen I've met are Christians. And for them, emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia has a very important place within their Christian theology. For many Twelve Tribesmen, it seems, Selassie is an ikon of Christ, and all of his words and deeds point to Christ.

Can Buddhism and Christianity really be reconciled so easily? Can Rastafari and Christianity really be reconciled so easily? These may be very difficult questions sometimes, but they are worth asking and exploring.
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2004 17:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Messian Dread's booklet, I got a chance to read it over the weekend.

I found most of Messian Dread's booklet enjoyable and interesting. Some parts did not interest me as much, probably because I don't care as much about Christafari and Mark Mohr as some of the other people here do. (Never actually been a fan of their music, never really cared to become a fan of their music, don't really agree with Christafari's theology, would never encourage others to listen to Christafari's music or theology, etc.)

As I voted in the poll, I think Messian Dread's booklet could be a useful addition to Christian/Rastafarian dialogue. I do not consider all of MD's own ideas about Christianity to be biblical, so there are some points of Christian theology on which we disagree. But overall, I have a similar view of Rastafarianism (which, I hope, will continue to develop over time).

Thank you, MD, for posting the booklet & link.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2004 00:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you know why Christafari says it is misleading for a Christian Rastafarian to be who he is? Because Christafari can not use the existance of these millions of people because they do not confirm the image that Rastafari has in the eyes of the evangelical world.

And all of this is to get some a position in CCM.

Quite a high price.

Jah Pickney wrote:
Sure there could be a saved Rastaman, but if he truly was saved don't you think he would start to change up his representation for the sake of the gospel?


No I do not think a Christian Rastafarian has to stop being a Rastafarian. But thank you for confirming you only say with your mouth that there is Christian Rastafarians because you can't rwally believe it.


Jah Pickney wrote:
Sure there could be a saved Rastaman, but if he truly was saved




And then er change the subject after you rant to what you think is the definition of a Rasta, still not ready to simply confirm your Rastafarian brethen and sistren in Kristos. Because right after telling how Rastas "if they are truly saved" should change into Christafarians (that is, outward a Rasta, inside an anti Rasta to the bone even denying they faith of Brothers and Sisters in Rastafari in order to maintain evangelical correct positions within ccm and the christian system) you say it again:

Quote:
a Rastaman can be very misleading to onlookers.


Even if they are Christian.......
A Rastafarian Christian is a deceiver.......

Bit it is because these observers do not overstand one inch about Rasta.

Quote:
I beleive the gospel should be presented in a very open and simple way so as not to create confusion.



I agree. That is why it shouldn't be preached to people who allready believe. That's why deceit such as the reason why christafari wears dreads should be abolished now., That is why Christafari should rectify the false information they give about the millions of Christians in Rastafari.

This whole issue makes me think of these christian zionist who support israeli helicopter bombing palestinian christians because they are palistinian.


Quote:
I must say when I looked at your website MD, I thought you were pure Selassie worshipping Rasta, even after reading all the material I was unsure where you stood.


But what does that matter? And that is a serious question. I mean how would you know what I am about if your mind set is like it is?

I think that Christafari and the ones who are actively promoting Christafarianism do more damage to the Gospel of Kristos than they claim people like me have. It's simple. If you have a problem with the existance of Christian Rastafarians and people like me why don't you go to the One Who made us who we are or change your mind set. I suggest you do the second.
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coolpoete
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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2004 05:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messian Dread wrote:
If you volunteer as moderator for people who call some Iahs in Kristos deceivers and you yourself do not think they are deceivers you at least got a credibility problem. Ofcourse it's working for Christafari. Could you look that word "work" up in your dictionairy?

Question remains: Why do you volunteer to work as a moderator on a forum from people who call brothers and sisters of you deceivers and you yourself claim to be in disagreement with Christafari concerning that?


I am not answering for Bill, but if I were to place myself in his shoes this would be my answer: If you watch a DVD movie nowadays you will see a disclaimer that says "The views and opinions expressed in this movie are not neccessarily the views and opinions of <insert name of company, such as 20th century fox>"

Yes you can work for someone but not hold the same opinions as them. When you volunteer for the red cross because you want to do something good for the fellow man, as another example that does not mean that you agree with the viewpoints and opinions of the founder of the red cross foundation.

Messian Dread wrote:
CP, why do you need a publication in the midst of publications and wait for Mark Mohr to come clean which will never come because Christafari is based on these things which you all so hastily denie as a thing of yourselfes. I see that very clearly and I am not the only one. Everybody here hastes to distances themselves from what I described as Christafarianism but the fact remains that none has of yet can quote me wrong in my description of this philosophy. The only thing you can (AND SHOULD) so is to check yourself if you are part of that philosophy. And then act accordingly.


If Mark never responds to our requests that's completely fine with me, I don't have to answer at the throne of God for his actions. I was curious to Mark's in-depth views of Rasta which would be based on the ministry that he said he had been doing in the Bobo Ashanti camps amongs others. Like I said I spoke with him briefly about some things but that does NOT influence my views on Rastas, or Christianity. I haven't been in his shoes so I cannot vouch for his beliefs. No one can!

There are many things that Christafari and myself have in common and that is what draws me here and to their music. It seems as though you have come to evidence that points to a flaw in their foundation of their ministry and that's fine. You are convicted of such because of the feedback that YOU were given. Let others make up their own minds and be convicted by God to do so. Because I and others choose to hold an opinion different than yours does not mean that I am running to Christafari's defense. I am not afraid to distance myself from Christafarianism, I hold to my own opinions and support what I believe to be fundamentally good causes. You are trying to disprove that Christafari is NOT a fundamentally good cause and that's perfectly fine.

If someone goes to your site and reads your work/listens to your music and chooses to formulate their belief based on what YOU say they are fundamentally wrong, much like the example that Jonagaus gave. If the FAQ's give a definition of Rasta and you do not does not mean that your views are wrong and Mark's are right. It just means that there are different opinions. We can get into "Messian Dread-ism" and what you believe as well, along with your fans and supporters and what not but that includes me as well, so now what?

Things are not what they seem: that statement can go both ways on this matter for Rasta's and Christians alike, esp. when it comes to appearance of dreads, colors and music. Jonagaus makes a very valid point. The responsibility for misinformation and misrepresentation needs to be placed on those who are out there in Jamaica or the West Indies telling Rastas that they are all wrong and need to convert because Christafari or Christafarianism says to do so. I am almost 100% sure that this is not the case. If Mark is a liar then he will pay for his sins.
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2004 13:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

CP, your analogy with "the opinions expressed..." doesn't fly. First, it is something different to watch or sell this Christafari DVD from the videoshop then to act as a PR man, for which you have to be very motivated to defend Christafari.

It's different to walk door to door getting some money for the red cross (a criminal organization) then to function as a PR spokesman. Very different.

I think we should de-program the Christafarians. I am not good in that, but I do recognize mind control and brainwash as I have seen them many times. And I do not speak about Christafari specifically.

A simple look at the profile of someone posting here gives a profile. You get an impression as to what is mostly done. So when someone denies defending Christafarianism (and I keep realizing how interesting that process is)

It is my personal experience, and you can verify that if you have like me the time to find things out by clicking on the archives in the forum, that every time I critisize Christafari for something different then the musical genre so to speak, this moderator starts to discuss things with me, tempting me every time to write long epistles in which I explain my points in several ways to which he then doesn't really answer. I just kept writing because I know that every word is also leaving a digital trace so people can check everything out for themselves.

So if for every five quotes of moderators defending and/or doing-damage-control you would give me one quote in which this same person critisizes Christafari, I think you would lose that particular game quite quickly. Come on, CP, no use in denying that.

And it is just the way it should be.

Because, if the moderators would not be expressing Christafarian viewpoint, what are they doing. They are PR people. This forum is the place online where Christafari meets the people. So they must be, as a matter of their function, supporting Christafari.

If they do NOT support Christafari, if they do NOT express the view of Christafari, then Christafari has a problem. Which they allready have and which will become bigger with every minute Christafari does not rectify the wrongs.

But until I get the proof that the moderators on the Lion of Zion forums do not support the teachings of Christafari I will stick with what is not my opinnion but a summary of the postings, actions, and principal of function from the Christafari moderators.

And when I get the proof that the moderators on the Christafari boards do not support the philosophy of Christafari, I would directly ask Mark Mohr for an official comment.

And wait as long as you wait...........

I am ready to debate Mark Mohr at any time and he knows that for years. If anyone wants to organize that I am willing to do so and even willing to travel for it.

Then, before you start speaking about "messiandreadism" please remember that the words Christafari, Christafarianism and Christafarians are all invented by Mark Mohr. I have every right to use these words as they are introduced by Christafari.

I also do not claim to be a "pastor" whom "all" have to "obey". I do not call people who like my musical works "messiandreadists".

You say you are interested in the teaching of Christafari when it comes to Rastafari, related to alleged "mission trips to the bobo's" (which could just as much be the result of buying a a broom or a tourist ticket to view an authentic bobo camp as this happens all the time), I have read Christ and Tafari which is Mark Mohrs book he is currently writing and it doesn't say a different thing then what you see on the FAQ and in interviews.

I think you have an open mind, you are inteligent too, and I believe you are sincere. So I am totally confident that when you start digging, you will engage a lot of surprising material.

An example.

Rastafarians were portrayed as people who like to kill other people when these other people do not "respect their god". Where? In an article listing Mark Mohr as source. Back in 1996. I have the article here. I might just put it back online but there are some things I have to check out first.

I remember how furious the Rastafarian community was after that article. I remember that I, in my naivitey, contacted Mark Mohr who privately told me that he was not the source of the article, which I told the Rastafarian community. I done these things a number of times until I found out that I was wasting my time.

The moderators here have an easy job. When I had my first contacts with Christafari I did some "moderating" (damage control, just like JP an mainly blaminack do here now) on public internet places. Over here when people become too confrontating, revealing or whatever they can be banned. But you can't ban anyone in the real world and that is why Christafari has left this real world after the Buju incident. The problem is that the buju incident did not make Christafari think about their message, other then finding inspiration for songs like "my lord has me on the frontline", and the result was that we saw less and lessa of Christafari in the real world and more and more of them in the Christian world in which they can be booked for mission actions by churches.

Even when they are playing in venues that usually harbour non-CCM artists like Black Uhuru and Burning Spear, the crowd is mainly CCM as the venue turned out to be rented by some Christian group.

Something else: we allready see how Christafari has a public face and a private face.

I am not into this since a few days. I am researching and studying this since 1996. I think that makes me longer experienced then most here.

I can tell you stories how people were threatened with lawsuits just for quoting and mentioning Christafari in their signature files on Internet postings.

After all, Christafari is TM and that is why nothing is going to change.

I have witnesses who can tell me who were "e-harrassed" after critisizing Christafari and none of these people are Rastafarian or Christian, so I guess that when JP speaks about "image of the gospel" I allways recall these things in my memory. And I am sure neither JP nor you or most other people here know these stories. Nevertheless they happenned and they are in the memory of a lot of people.

I also recall how I am accused of driving people away from here as a result of my essay. But when I check I found out that this person can not even send email to Mark Mohr as his email adress is not accepted there anymore. So who's driving away who. And so there are many stories to be told. Many.

But I do not think they are neccesary to make the point. The teachings of Christafari, combined with the private responses in which the flaws are admitted but never rectified because of fear for the reactions in the evangelical world, not at least the financial reactions, says enough.

Quote:
The responsibility for misinformation and misrepresentation needs to be placed on those who are out there in Jamaica or the West Indies telling Rastas that they are all wrong and need to convert because Christafari or Christafarianism says to do so.


Everybody knows the monster of Frankenstein but nobody knows the name of this monster. That is because Frankenstein is responsible for the monster he created.
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Jah Pickney
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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2004 14:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messian Dread wrote
Quote:
Quote:
I beleive the gospel should be presented in a very open and simple way so as not to create confusion.


I agree. That is why it shouldn't be preached to people who allready believe. That's why deceit such as the reason why christafari wears dreads should be abolished now., That is why Christafari should rectify the false information they give about the millions of Christians in Rastafari.


But even if you are correct that some Rastas are born again and saved, not all of them are. The ones who do worship Selassie, the ones who do fit the description of the LoZ FAQ's - shouldn't they be ministered to? Maybe Mark only mentions these ones within Rastafari because they are the only ones who need the gospel. Mark and I and Stitchie and Papa San and many more have all seen Rastafarians saved through our ministries so don't try to fight us down and stop us when there are still some who need to hear it.
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