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Teachings of Ras Tafari
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2004 17:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

perfectloveinH.I.M. wrote:
Emmanuel in flesh was a nazarite which meks deh consumption of a grape juice product undrinkable, if deh I dem assume dat he kept him covenant fi life.


There is no evidence that Y'shua was ever a Nazarite. In fact, we do have evidence that Y'shua drank wine and encouraged others to do the same.
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perfectloveinH.I.M.
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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2004 17:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

deh problem with dat reasoning is if Yeshua was not a nazarite then why was Yohn deh baptist mistaken when he came forward for deh Christ? speaking of appearance wise-
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Irie-in-Christ
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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2004 17:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonagus, you said " I would guess they're probably not yet answering your questions because it looks like you could be baiting someone for an argument rather than simply asking questions for information."

I don't overstand you. Why do you think that it lookes like I am baiting for an argument? I am not. I started this topic by 'I was just thinking'. And that's all there is to it. I was just thinking and wanted to know how others think about this.

You also said: "You might do well to read some histories of Rastafarianism --there are many to choose from."

I have already done that. I am quite familiar with rastafari. 'Jesus Dread' from W.D Spencer is on my bookshelf, and many more. So you are not the only one that knows some. And as you can see, the real rasta's ARE responding.
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2004 20:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irie-in-Christ wrote:
Why do you think that it lookes like I am baiting for an argument? I am not.


I'm glad you're not. But it's hard to read tone through text, as I'm sure you know. And when people begin a conversation by pointing to apparent discrepancies in someone else's thought, it tends to look like they want an argument, though they may not. (And I'm not talking about a fight with animosity, just a debate.)

Quote:
You also said: "You might do well to read some histories of Rastafarianism --there are many to choose from."

I have already done that. I am quite familiar with rastafari.


OK. Then you already know that Selassie is, in a very real sense, a later "addition" to an already existing consciousness/ideology movement, a movement in which he usually plays a key role but which already had direction before he came on the scene. You already know that he is often not looked upon as the teacher or leader of the movement in the sense your question seemed to imply. And you know why many Rastas feel tension with Ethiopian Orthodoxy, instead of adopting it eagerly.
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Irie-in-Christ
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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2004 16:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know there was a movement going on long before haile selassie, which eventually led to rastafarianism. All I am saying is that just as you can only speak of christianity from the time Christ came 'into the picture', so you can speak only from rastafari from the day haile selassie came into the picture.
When Bob sings of 'the teachings of his majesty' I think what we should do is look at what his teachings really were about. They were ethiopian orthodox. He was a christian. He denied being God and sent bishop Yesehaq to jamaica to dispel the worship of H.I.M. So I was just thinking: if we all want to really follow the teachings of his majesty, we should follow Christ and nobody else.
I do not know why rasta's have a problem with ethiopian orthodoxy. To me it is a matter of doing your homework well. There is much material about haile selassie (about his life, his way of seeing things etc.) It is my opinion that if you study this all carefully, you can only come to one conclusion: haile selassie wanted nobody to worship or follow him. So I would say that it is cool to have respect for rasta's and be friendly towards them (as to every human being). But how far must this respect go? For me, it is too far if we don't make it clear that we all should follow Christ, and not H.I.M. RESPECT!
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2004 22:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irie-in-Christ wrote:
I know there was a movement going on long before haile selassie, which eventually led to rastafarianism. All I am saying is that just as you can only speak of christianity from the time Christ came 'into the picture', so you can speak only from rastafari from the day haile selassie came into the picture.


I see you point. I just don't know to what extent I would say that. The book of Hebrews, in chapter 11, speaks of Moses looking forward to the Messiah, the Christ. Is he not, in some sense, a "Christian," albeit without explicit knowledge of Y'shua? And ancient Christians like Justin Martyr called the philosopher Socrates a kind of "Christian," though he lived before the time of Y'shua, because so many of his beliefs pointed forward toward Christ.

So maybe you can call pre-Selassie members of the movement "Rastas" in some sense, albeit a qualified one?

Of course, the qualification could be immense. Rastas will probably see more continuity between the prior movement and the movement after 1930 than most Christians would.

Quote:
When Bob sings of 'the teachings of his majesty' I think what we should do is look at what his teachings really were about. They were ethiopian orthodox. He was a christian. He denied being God and sent bishop Yesehaq to jamaica to dispel the worship of H.I.M. So I was just thinking: if we all want to really follow the teachings of his majesty, we should follow Christ and nobody else.


I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here. I am a Christian myself, and though not a member of the EOC, I have many beliefs in common with it and am very respectful toward it. But I think there may be some "Rastas" who are quite a bit closer to Christianity than others think, even to the point of being "a kind of Christianity." Consider those Rastas who do worship Y'shua and do not worship Selassie, but regard the emperor as a great ikon of Y'shua. This is not entirely distinguishable from Christianity, may be considered closer to Christianity than some other forms of Rastafari, and may actually be a form of Christianity. This is something worth exploring.

I wonder, though, whether many Christians here would really be happy about Rastas becoming EOC members. The EOC, like the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches, holds many ancient Christian doctrines and practices dear which Protestants find repulsive, like the veneration of Miriam and the saints, the eucharist as the true flesh and blood of Y'shua, the seven holy mysteries (sacraments) as means of grace, the longer Old Testament canon, the hierarchy of bishops, the veneration of holy icons, etc.

Quote:
I do not know why rastas have a problem with ethiopian orthodoxy.


One reason that Spencer points out is that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has long been involved in amicable ecumenical dialogue with other major Christian churches and groups--including churches and groups that Rastas consider (whether rightly or wrongly) to be a part of (or in collusion with) "Babylon," e.g. churches and groups whose members who participated in the trans-Atlantic slave trade and/or whose members have perpetuated other racial and economic injustices. Rastas might be able to accept the EOC if the EOC were not willing to engage in ecumenical dialogue and pray with Southern Baptists (to choose an example of one Christian group with a racially checkered history).

Now personally, I don't particularly like Southern Baptist theology in general (sorry, SBC members). And I agree that the SBC has an abhorrant historical association with American slavery and race-segregation, which everyone should oppose. On the other hand, I also recognize that there are now many Southern Baptists who are not racists (at least not consciously or intentionally), nor would they condone racism. And many Southern Baptists are clearly trying to come to terms with their history in one way or another, to repent, reconcile, and build bridges, as seems to be the case in the books like Getting Right With God: Southern Baptists and Desegregation, 1945-1995, Time to Reconcile: The Odyssey of a Southern Baptist, The Last Days: A Son's Story of Sin and Segregation at the Dawn of a New South (I have not read these, just seen descriptions).

So on the one hand, I can understand the tension Rastas would feel if the EOC was praying with Southern Baptists and engaging them in friendly ecumenical dialogue: the SBC was, historically, an "enemy," and a quite cruel one at that. On the other hand, the history of a group like the Southern Baptists does not inevitably determine the way all Southern Baptists now are or what they believe: They can reject their fathers' racism, and many have done so. To that I would say: if our enemies would repent, we should welcome the repentance and look forward to reconciliation, not reject it.

Quote:
It is my opinion that if you study this all carefully, you can only come to one conclusion: haile selassie wanted nobody to worship or follow him.


But there are Rastas who do not worship Selassie.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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warthog
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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2004 23:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irie-in-X-rist
you wrote: I do not know why rastas have a problem with ethiopian orthodoxy.

I dont know which rastas( necessary opppressed peoples spiritual struggle) your talking about, or are you refering to dumbstars/ rusters
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Irie-in-Christ
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PostPosted: 03 Sep 2004 09:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So maybe you can call pre-Selassie members of the movement "Rastas" in some sense, albeit a qualified one?


I see your point as well. Still I think that a movement can only be called after a person, from the time this person came into the picture. For instance the Mosaic law only existed from the time Moses existed. And the Mosaic 'movement' only came alive after and during the life of Moses. But I know you can also look it at the way you describe.

Quote:
I wonder, though, whether many Christians here would really be happy about Rastas becoming EOC members. The EOC, like the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches, holds many ancient Christian doctrines and practices dear which Protestants find repulsive, like the veneration of Miriam and the saints, the eucharist as the true flesh and blood of Y'shua, the seven holy mysteries (sacraments) as means of grace, the longer Old Testament canon, the hierarchy of bishops, the veneration of holy icons, etc.


Good point, I think you may be right.


Thanks for explaining the trouble some rasta's have with EOC. I overstand now

Quote:
But there are Rastas who do not worship Selassie.


I know. Praise Jah
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