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The Christafari Doctrine....
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 19 May 2004 13:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny to see that there were allready replies before the actual posting was put on the forum. No, don't take these things too personally. That's not the intention. Remember, there was a small conversation (http://www.lionofzion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15225#15225) whether this should be discussed or not. This is a subject which should be aimed at getting overstanding.

As far as the remarks concerning censorship, I am refering to JP's announcement that "admin and the moderators" will "clean up" the forum. That's all. It's of little use if you spend a few hours writing something and it then gets deleted.

blaminack wrote:
Jetze I will do my best to consider your words IF you can stop and consider mine.


Ofcourse. This is why the thread is started... Let's not take things personally. At least I am not thinking about anyone personally. This all is more about overall and general effects caused by the philosophies as published by LOZ. Please do not take things personal.

Quote:
As far as the idea, of "reaching" Rastas, I have to ask you something. What will be the fate of Bobo Rastas? Are they as correct in their teachings as say 12 Tribes for example?


It's hard to say what the "fate" will be of anyone. I can only be happy and gratefull with what our Saviour has done for us. I can only live up to Yesus' Words. Who feels it knows it.

Quote:
I must also ask what exactly is the Messian Dread technique of evangelism.


There is none.

Quote:
I ask this because I see folks that take your word as the truth in the "wanna-be" rasta folks. You know the kind. I have seen a few folks that start liking your music and they want to emulate you... they send the email with the idea being.... "I have been Religion shopping, and I like to smoke Ganja, and I think dreads are kind of nifty, so how do I join?" Do they hear the Gospel of Christ?


Do you read emails that I receive? I rarely receive these kind of mails you "quote" so to speak. I do receive emails from people who know their Lord and Saviour, or want to get to know Him but think that it is only the white geezus if you know what I mean.

Quote:
See I am hearing the idea of your critique but I have to ask what exactly are the working methods of Evangelism that you are finding usefull?


I have no "methods" or "techniques" of evangelizing other then sharing thoughts, praising JAH and not hiding where I get my strength from. Living, seen.....

Quote:
I know that you are doing your best to wake up folks to Babylon, fine but what are you doing to reach those whose Rasta leanings have slipped them off into some New Age Doctrines, or Kemetism?


Most people read my meditations. I reason a lot too, on and offline. New Age is babylonian too, and I've written a lot about New Age.

Quote:
If you offer a critque then please offer a better method.


Why? I'm not even convinced that one should speak about "methods" or "techniques" and all that. Is there a better "method" then being who you are in the place where you are?

Quote:
I know that you personally believe in Christ as your Saviour but what of those that you come in contact with that have replaced Christ with a man?


Doesn't JAH know that? I do not know how JAH uses me. I just know that I got to know Yesus and I also got to know myself, and I stand where I stand. I see that JAH works through me sometimes so to speak buyt I couldn't tell you what JAH's "method" is so to speak.

Quote:
You say that Selassie is an Icon of Christ, ok but what happens when some one says Jetze you are wrong, HIM is God? Do you go about showing them the truth in love?


Do you think I am going to say that Selassie is God? I hardly have these debates, really. When I have them I have them either with "rasta wannabees" or "christian anti-rastas" (to put it that way for clarity). I allways receive respect, even where people know that I do not believe Selassie to be JAH.

admin wrote:
no one has come yet to the challenge to give us evidence of deleted posts, and in the meantime they are making crude and false accusations against brethren.


I am refering to JP's announcement that "admin and the moderators" will "clean up" the forum. That's all. It's of little use if you spend a few hours writing something and it then gets deleted. This has nothing to do with "false accusations" and all that. That is too heavy. Let's drop this vibe.... Let's discuss on the things that matter.

Quote:
First, MD your post is too long to be analyzed and thoughtfully considered. Your thoughts although clear,seem to wander. Please focus on one point of your criticism at a time so proper consideration and responses can be given.


Iah, it was allready a summary, a summary of an introduction even. Yes they are long, but seven years of thinking is also a long time. That is how long I am thinking about this. You've committed yourself to being an "admin" (whoever you are), it would take you perhaps 20 minutes to read my posting. I took me longer to write. Don't you think this is worth spending the time?

Quote:
No, metal and Rastafari should not be compared, but remember you are the one comparing them!


No. Aren't the Bob Beeman things I wrote correct? Aren't the "techniques" the same?

Quote:
There is no such thing as Christian music, only Christian lyrics. How do you know that the first death metal band wasn't singing Christian lyrics in a garage band and the world stole it from us? Music is part creation and mostly immitation. Again, not all metal is affiliated with satan


You know I am refering to what is known as "CCM" or "Christian Contemporary Music", there is also a "Christian Music Industry". "Christian Labels" which are in fact owned by the bigger record companies labeled "secular". I also do not believe that JAH created metal music, sorry.

Quote:
Messian Dread wrote:
Jah - Why do we use the name?
Jah- Why Don't We Use the Name Anymore?
This is an absurdity allready, when you see these two sentences.

They only show up that way because they are sorted alphabetically. Read nothing more than that into it. Still 1)we are born 2)we die. There's no absurdity there. Things change.


Yes, things change. And yes, it might be alphabetically, nevertheless it illustrates something. Yes, things change. I know. I am also happy that the "focus" of Christafari is no longer "the Rastas" and all that. But nevertheless, my points of critique remain. Why dropping the NAME of JAH and keeping all the "Rasta-ish symbology"? That IS in my eyes an absurdity.

Quote:
Messsian Dread wrote:
The Christian youths spoken off have not "become Rasta"
Don't speak with authority on this matter. You don't know all youths, you haven't done a study of these youths, and you haven't submitted to congress a 1500 page paper titled "gospel reggae's effects on contemporary Christian youths aged 12-17 in white middle class america."


No, I am writing an article which is allready labeled as "too long" in a forum which could be considered a "congress" too.

You write also that the covers change and all that. Okay. I am also rtefering to the answer to a question I asked Mark Mohr in an interview, I asked him if the "dropping" of the Name of "Jah" (it's hard even to write this sentence I tell ya) indicates dropping of the Rastafarian Symbology too and the answer was a big no no.

boomfire wrote:
i just read messians post and the ones that followed /.... but in regards to taking a worldly style of music ... and changing the lyrics to suit a christian audience., what is wrong with that?


Nothing, if you see nothing wrong with it. Just don't call it "evangelizing".......
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 19 May 2004 14:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze when I speak of methods I am speaking of witnessing with purpose. We are in a Spiritual battle as I am sure you would agree. Battles require strategy. It is a figure of speach. Yes, merely living ones life in a Godly manner would be considered a tactic. But I have to ask where does this verse come into that idea....?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

When you compare the idea of fitting in to the scene to living he scene, they are two differant things.

It is a matter of effectiveness.

Will I be able to relate to all people at all times? No! There are many who would not so much as give me the time of day until we connect on a level of commonality. That is what the idea of evangelism is about.

Looking at the Metal idea... for a second. Is it a sin to wear black clothes? Have long hair? Play guitar, and scream? No.

Let us look as the Reggae Scene in this light... is it a sin to wear Red, Green and Gold? Or is it a sin to "wear" dreadlocks? Or how about play Reggae Riddims? I don't think so.

In the FAQ there was a mention of the idea of using the non-sinful aspects of the culture to speak to the people of the culture. This is not about bigotry. Or racism, or Culture Robbery but rather a matter of respect.

If we believe that God has commanded us to preach the Gospel then shouldn't we take some time and consideration of the culture? Every Missionary that had any success does this. They learn the language, the customs, what offends, what is taboo, what to eat, etc. and they opperate in that framework to do what they believe God has commanded.

If you believe that a person is on their way to hell because they have swallowed a lie do you think it is right to leave that alone? If so why? Is that really love?

I believe that we are to do our best to preach the Gospel, live the Gospel, and build the Kingdom of Christ. Is waering a hairstyle effective? In some cases. Is that same hairstyle going to be good for all people groups? No.

If some one makes a hypocrite out themselves by saying yes I am a Rasta, to reach a Rasta then I have to agree totally with you! But if a person is living an "Ital Livity" and believes that Jesus Christ is is the only way to salvation does not the Dreads and his lifestyle have validity?

Look at Ras B as an example. They man is living most every aspect of the Ital Livity and preaches the Gospel, in places that I would not able. So is he not right to do so?

Is the problem having the Dreads or saying that they are a tool? Here is why I ask. Is the offense in having Dreads or recognizing their impact? You of course realize that many have dreads today. Few are living the "dread" life that is associated with it. This makes me wonder if you do not do the same thing for other reasons. As a muscian you have worked with Rastas, do you think that you would have been sought out as much with out your dreads? I know you will say yes, it is based on your talent. But there are many good muscians who could have been chosen. You were asked aboe those and maybe some with even sharper skills based on something other than JUST talent. So is it not true that your dreads have bought you a measure of credibility? I know that this question will be hard to answer in totally honesty. So leave it unanswered if you like.
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 19 May 2004 17:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaminack wrote:
We are in a Spiritual battle as I am sure you would agree.


Yes. However, I do not think that what we discuss is directly the same as that battle. For yes it is spiritual and of that, Paulus teaches us that in this battle, we do not fight against flesh and blood neither do we have physical arms.

Quote:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


Yes. And as you can read, I am debating whether what is described in my posting is an actual work-pout of the scripture you quoted.

Quote:
Looking at the Metal idea... for a second. Is it a sin to wear black clothes? Have long hair? Play guitar, and scream? No.
Let us look as the Reggae Scene in this light... is it a sin to wear Red, Green and Gold? Or is it a sin to "wear" dreadlocks? Or how about play Reggae Riddims? I don't think so.


I know that Christafari "look(s) as the Reggae Scene in this light" and I think that it is wrong to do that. This is what I am debating too. Where the "Metal scene" might consist out of the things you mention, there is a difference between the "Metal Scene" and the "Satanists". Equally there is a difference between the "Reggae Scene" and the Movement of Rastafari. Ofcourse, I know there are many many musicians out there who play reggae and do the things you describe. But how do you think this is seen by Rastafari? One and One is Two. If you are like those in the "Reggae Scene" that use the symbology of a movement they are not related too, don't be surprised if you are also seen as such. And the question should be asked, perhaps, is it good to be seen as such? Especially when you are so closely related to the "church" and all that? Are you a good representant of Yesus Kristos if you are "a reggae scener with the reggae sceners", who are using Rastafari only to get attention?

Quote:
In the FAQ there was a mention of the idea of using the non-sinful aspects of the culture to speak to the people of the culture.


Yes. However, in the definitions of Rastafari you can clearly read a description of a religion. And JAH said not that one has to be a budhist with the budhists. If you seriously believe Rastafari to be a religion that is not the religion of Yesus Kristos, you can not apply scriptures about a culture.

Quote:
If you believe that a person is on their way to hell because they have swallowed a lie do you think it is right to leave that alone?


It's not about that. Not at all.

Quote:
Is waering a hairstyle effective? In some cases. Is that same hairstyle going to be good for all people groups? No.


Dreadlocks is not a hairstyle and if you portray it as a hairstyle and when you wear "dreads" and explain it as a hairstyle you have allready "lost" the dreads you claim to reach out to ("you" figuratively). It is not a sign of respect to Rastafari or Dreadlocks to say that dreads is a hairstyle. Unless you want to be seen as someone who sees dreads as a lifestyle. Do you feel me?

Quote:
Is the problem having the Dreads or saying that they are a tool?


Initially, I thought "the latter, the second". But I think both is also the problem. Wearing dreads in order to reach the dreads is the problem. One should wear the dreads because either Jah Jah told them to do it or because they choose to do it for Jah. But not "(having dreads) as a tool".

Quote:
As a muscian you have worked with Rastas, do you think that you would have been sought out as much with out your dreads? I know you will say yes, it is based on your talent. But there are many good muscians who could have been chosen. You were asked aboe those and maybe some with even sharper skills based on something other than JUST talent. So is it not true that your dreads have bought you a measure of credibility?


I have a lot of problems with the words "buying credibility". So the answer is no. I am also never "sought out". I am who I am where I am. And that's it. You know, you gotta be who you ARE. And when you are who you are ("be you, yabby yabby you"), then you are how Jah Jah created you and you do the things which HE has layed out for you from the foundation of the earth.
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warrior
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PostPosted: 19 May 2004 17:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am also happy that the "focus" of Christafari is no longer "the Rastas" and all that



Quote:
working field to be in the area of "black" metal and "satanism"and all that



Quote:
"christian youths" to "enjoy" the music which is otherwise seen as heathen, pagan, wrong,and all that


Quote:
I'm not even convinced that one should speak about "methods" or "techniques"and all that



Quote:
This has nothing to do with "false accusations"and all that


Quote:
Initially, I thought "the latter, the second". But I think both is also the problem. Wearing dreads in order to reach the dreads is the problem. One should wear the dreads because either Jah Jah told them to do it or because they choose to do it for Jah. But not "(having dreads) as a tool".


You are contrary to your own words. JAH DOES tell many to wear them.

JAH uses ALL things as a "tool". I man am a "tool" to glorify him. Are we the clay or the potter?

Are you saying JAH only tells people to wear them in the "way" that YOU say?
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Admin
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PostPosted: 19 May 2004 22:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Funny to see that there were allready replies before the actual posting was put on the forum.


Partly because you discussed many things in your preamble and partly because you said you would follow this post with your critique...but it took 17 hours for that reply to come. You would be better to forget the preamble and get to the point.

Many of us don't have the time to read your stuff when it is that long. The same reasons I tell Mark to break up his newsletters into weekly or monthly small mailings. People don't have time to read a novellette. If it spans more than one screen I usually ignore it unless I have a responsibility to read it.

I guess the crux of your post is that you don't like the techniques used by Mark or other CCM artists in evangelizing the world. Maybe you are right. Maybe they need to take a look into their own eyes and see if they are selling the gospel or if they are ligitimately evangelizing the lost.

However, there are two things that are standard.

1) The industry is currently massive and where there is that kind of money change will not come unless mammon leaves. The money is what attracted the big secular marketers....something which was mutually beneficial.

2) You aren't likely to change the mind of any of the Christafarians or just plain Christians that reside here on this site. These guys are solid and their minds are made up. It may be more beneficial to discuss these things with Mark directly, someone who could actually change things if he believes your ideas.
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 20 May 2004 00:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrior wrote:
Messian Dread wrote:
all that (x times)


???????? What's wrong with pointing out to matter everybody knows by using the english words "and all that"? I hear many times that these words are utilized in this context.

warrior wrote:
Messian Dread wrote:
Initially, I thought "the latter, the second". But I think both is also the problem. Wearing dreads in order to reach the dreads is the problem. One should wear the dreads because either Jah Jah told them to do it or because they choose to do it for Jah. But not "(having dreads) as a tool".

You are contrary to your own words. JAH DOES tell many to wear them.


Where do I say JAH tells not many to wear them? I am saying that JAH tells people to wear the dreads because they are dread. And there are also people who choose to have dreadlocks as a sign of their livication to JAH. This sign is obviously not for the Iah's but for babylon. And dreads are not some kind of outward hairstyle which you can use to get in contact with people whi are dreadlocks from creation.

Quote:
JAH uses ALL things as a "tool". I man am a "tool" to glorify him. Are we the clay or the potter?


Exactly my point. We are not to use dreads as a tool. That is up to JAH.

admin wrote:
Many of us don't have the time to read your stuff when it is that long.


Then don't.....

Quote:
I guess the crux of your post is that you don't like the techniques used by Mark or other CCM artists in evangelizing the world. Maybe you are right. Maybe they need to take a look into their own eyes and see if they are selling the gospel or if they are ligitimately evangelizing the lost.


Maybe it needs to be discussed, in the open, in mutual respect but still discussed. Discussed by those people who have a sincere interest in the matter. No this ain't no "soundbyte" subject. Man, I only touched the surface.

Quote:
However, there are two things that are standard.


"go with the flow"......

Quote:
1) The industry is currently massive and where there is that kind of money change will not come unless mammon leaves. The money is what attracted the big secular marketers....something which was mutually beneficial.


Sure.....

Quote:
2) You aren't likely to change the mind of any of the Christafarians or just plain Christians that reside here on this site. These guys are solid and their minds are made up. It may be more beneficial to discuss these things with Mark directly, someone who could actually change things if he believes your ideas.


No I do not think so. As your collegue Mike Roots explained to me, there is a link at the bottom of every faq which leads to the forum and says something like "discuss this subject". So if you have a hard time reading long posts as an admin and you want to make it easy for yourself by stating that long messages aren't going to interest you, then what I write isn't for you maybe. Then, on the other hand, if you are an "admin" then it is your work to read the postings and maybe just do your work.
I can also refer to Mike Roots' remarks when he says that there are a number of people who post here and they do have some influence.
I have a very long breath too. It's okay if we strongly disagree, it's not okay when these disagreements can not be discussed.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 20 May 2004 00:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze,

When a Rasta wears Dreads as a sign against Babylon are they not a tool in their chanting down of Babylon?

Yes they are. Now we may choose to use differant terms of description, but they are DOING something. If they are serving some sort of purpose they are a tool.

You seem to make the assumption that God DIDN"T tell Mark or Jah Pickney to have Dreads, or any of the other Gospel Reggae Artists that have worn them for long time before they were described as a witnessing tool.

Have you ever asked what they would do if God told them that dreads were not appropriate? Have you asked any of them if God has told them to grow them?

God told a Prophet to cook his food using human waste and then changed his mind and had the man use animal waste to witness to the people. Is it not totally with in reason to think that God COULD use dreads for His purpose and that the purpose may be differant than the one that He gave you?

Mark has a differant perspective about things than you... that is clear but I see a contridiction in your reasoning. It is personal liberty in your book in regards to ganja, but God cannot give another a differant reasoning than the one that he gave you?

Now before you say that I have changed in this matter, no I haven't. I still believe that God is no respecter of persons and doesn't waver. I am merely pointing out the contridiction in your reasoning and inconsistancy.

Blessins
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Admin
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PostPosted: 20 May 2004 01:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...there is a link at the bottom of every faq which leads to the forum and says something like "discuss this subject".


This is correct, but please post which FAQ you are referring to along with a link when you post so others can read it before commenting.

Quote:

Quote:
admin wrote:
Many of us don't have the time to read your stuff when it is that long.


Then don't.....


I'm sure many other people have listened to this advice of yours regarding your own work and not read them. I'm simply suggesting that if you truly wish to engage in a discussion then keep it concise. Otherwise you are speaking into the wind....

Quote:
So if you have a hard time reading long posts as an admin and you want to make it easy for yourself by stating that long messages aren't going to interest you, then what I write isn't for you maybe. Then, on the other hand, if you are an "admin" then it is your work to read the postings and maybe just do your work.


God knows what my work is, not you. There are differences between an Administrator and a Moderator. The admin is not compelled to read all posts, but he does take care of the software, the administrative tasks and banning users at the advice of a moderator. This should lead you to understand how forgiving our moderators are because I haven't received a banning suggestion from them yet. I read posts out of my own interest or when I feel a need to - like now. Please note that the last portion of the quote would be considered a character attack and won't be tolerated. If it is a language issue please clarify but from an english point of view it conveys sarcasm and bossiness.

Quote:
It's okay if we strongly disagree, it's not okay when these disagreements can not be discussed.


Actually it's fine when disagreements can't be discussed....or should I say discussed at length. When there is nothing to gain from the disagreement then it weighs down all who are involved. From my point of view, practically every post in here has been a disagreement at length. Then they degenerate into a character attack, they leave their original thought and become a life of their own. They continue for pages and no one is convinced of the other persons position. This does not make sense. Brothers discuss and learn from each other most often. Enemies argue most often. Are you a brother of these people or an enemy of them?
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