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The Christafari Doctrine....
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 27 May 2004 12:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaminack wrote:
There is often a huge gap between what we say and how we are interpreted. I can be TOTALLY responsible for what I say, but I cannot be responsible for what you take from it.


That's why writing and thing requires some talents and all that. That's why Petrus told us to equip ourselves so that we might be able to formulate the words that describe our thoughts in such a way that others see it.

But we are not really talking about "responsibility". That's like "solving" a problem by "blaming" someone. We're discussing the fruits. The fruits which came from a wrong definition of Rastafari on the Christafari website and other publications and are recognized (hence the "change in approach").

Perhaps I can clarify this a little bit by making some statementys concerning my past so to speak. Being born and raised in the pentecoastal tradition, I kind of went astray from the Lord and Saviour until a point I was getting into all kinds of anti-christian things as an early teenager. When I was then caught by Reggae Music and started to be educated and informed by it, I realized that the God Whom I thought was the white geezus coming to get me for not being a good babylonian slave, is in fact nothing like that at all. When I became born again, I know that Rastafari had shown me the way out of the occult and thing before I could really get into it, and I will therefore never put Rastafari into an anti-JAH corner.

When you read this it is kind of obvious to see the many similairites between Mark Mohr's story and mine, and also obvious to see the crucial differences too. but I think I know what I talk about.

You can read in the quoted interpretation of Mark's bio, that the writer wrote: "getting into violence etc, and "eventually" into Rastafari before becoming born again". This shows a mind set in which the so called Rastafarianism is seen as an extreme form of being not born again, I hope I am still clear.
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GFD DUB MUSIC
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PostPosted: 27 May 2004 16:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messian Dread wrote:


Perhaps I can clarify this a little bit by making some statementys concerning my past so to speak. Being born and raised in the pentecoastal tradition, I kind of went astray from the Lord and Saviour until a point I was getting into all kinds of anti-christian things as an early teenager. When I was then caught by Reggae Music and started to be educated and informed by it, I realized that the God Whom I thought was the white geezus coming to get me for not being a good babylonian slave, is in fact nothing like that at all. When I became born again, I know that Rastafari had shown me the way out of the occult and thing before I could really get into it, and I will therefore never put Rastafari into an anti-JAH corner.



when you say," and I will therefore never put Rastafari into an anti-JAH corner".
... you are saying anti-GOD , and i am sure you know this. Now, Haile Selassie said H.I.M.self that he was not JAH and that it is a mistake for a man to think so about him. Have you ever thought of the possibility that you are still wrong in your Interpretations? ....especially how the Catholic Church is Babylon..that for sure is millions and millions of people who belong to the Worlds Largest Christian denomination you are speaking this way Against and that shows you are wrong. Are You ready to bash the Faith of all the Faithful in Christ as Babylon to Support your Rastafarian Salvation?... these are only Questions that i hope you are able to clear up with some of the things i have heard you say, and the opinions of a few others in response to what you have said.
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mikeroots
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PostPosted: 27 May 2004 21:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

The name, the name....hmmm. You guys have said quite a bit about the name "Christafari". I have to say that I am so used to the name that I don't really think anything of it. However, I do recall telling a friend about the group and his reaction was immediately a negative one. He felt that it was sort of like a swipe at Rastafarians and he just didn't like the sound of it. Maybe there is a sort of defiance to it- saying you call yourself RASTAfari, well I call myself CHRISTafari! Though the name is so common to me, I have to admit that another name would be better. Funny thing is after all this time I have heard very, very few objections to the name "Christafari". One would think this board would have been flooded with criticisms. I guess that could either mean acceptance of it, that people just don't bother expressing their disapproval or that times have changed. I think it's probably a little of each, but times have definitely changed.
Also, does "Christafari" really mean "Followers of Christ" or whatever in Greek? I never researched it for myself but I believe GFD refuted this. Anybody research this to see if this is a correct translation?

Just take a look at what GFD shared about when Rasta was established- and I think what he says there about Leonard Howell and the founding principles is probably true. When Mark Mohr founded Christafari in 1988/1989, Rasta was looked at much differently than now (at least by some of us). I have to admit that although I have been listening to reggae since the late 80's especially roots, that my views have been shaped and influenced some by Christafari. BUT I have also done my own research and reasoning with brethren like Messian Dread, Talking Dog, CoolPoet and others who are very well informed on Rasta and also Christianity. Also I have listened to music from people like Yabby You and Sugar Minott who profess faith in Christ, though their approach may be unconventional.
My knowledge has expanded quite a bit I would say. I can also see where many other brethren have learned and added a lot to these discussions.
I now see a lot of views being presented out there as uninformed, antiquated or even ignorant- even though some mean well.

One question I have- a side subject, hope you don't mind. Why do Rastas say things like "Selassie IS...", in other words that he is still alive? It almost seems to me to be an expression of his deity. Do I have it wrong? It just seems to me that the only one who has died who we can speak of in the present is Yeshua who is the Everlasting Father. If Selassie "IS" then can the same be said for any follower of Yeshua who passes? Do you feel me? Jetze, I do understand what you say about those who have salvation in Yeshua aren't dead- even though their flesh dies, so maybe that's what is meant. Anyway, a little clarification on this would be good.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 28 May 2004 00:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze wrote:
You can read in the quoted interpretation of Mark's bio, that the writer wrote: "getting into violence etc, and "eventually" into Rastafari before becoming born again". This shows a mind set in which the so called Rastafarianism is seen as an extreme form of being not born again, I hope I am still clear.

I see the point of what Mark said in a totally differant way, as I am sure you would have guessed ahead of time.

I think the point being made is that he was searching for something, and he didn't know what but soon found that Rasta was not what he was looking for.

Jetze, I think that part of the problem with this discussion is that you accuse us as "Christian Fans of Christafari" of using over reaching generalizations. But I believe that you do the same thing. Every single idea of the Rasta teachings wrong in our view, yet that is how you like to portray us. For example who can argue with the Rasta idea of living what you preach? Or trying to maintain a healthy body? Or a love for the Bible? Or recognizing sin in high and low places? Or loving the Roots of where we come from? We don't fight against that! We are however very specific, in other areas and these areas are vaild. One Selassie is not Christ. And we all know and understand that not all Rasta believe that, we are seeking to reach the ones who do with that message. You also have made it a point to place on your site the interviews that show HIMs teaching on this. Therefore I see this as a place of commonality with a differant approach. The other area of contention is obviously the use of Ganja. We all know where we all stand on this topic.

These are just some of the places of disagreement of course but let us get away from broad ideas and be specific. You had a problem in that Christafari made Rasta look to be a bad thing. I think that we would all agree that for some it has been. Many have totally gotten away from anything that Selassie lived or taught, and have slipped into Kemetism, Hinduism, New Age Teachings, etc. The mix that is taking place in not really one of Christianity and Rasta, but of Hippy styled New Age teachings and Rasta. I believe that our focus should always be the Word of God. When we discuss that, we plow much more fertile ground. Let us discuss Scripture. Let us talk about Selassie's words. Let us discuss what can be learned about living a Godly life. But also let us be honest about all the aspects of Rasta Livity. None of us here would diss every single thing about Rasta Livity, but there is lots that should be discussed. I hope too that you would be honest about what you see wrong with the Rasta Movement other than just glossing over things that should be seen. Bobo Shantys need the Real Christ. Pentecostals need the REAL Christ. Those of us who see the differances between what Modern Christianity has become and what the Bible teaches will be honest about that too I am sure.

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coolpoete
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PostPosted: 28 May 2004 02:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

True words, bill and Mike..

I still see an issue with the need to have the name changed. I for one think that if a person is convicted in what they stand for they should continue to take their stance in it. Changing the name of Christafari does discredit the organization in my opinion... to please man? Same thing with the name Lion of Zion. We can argue what we think it sounds like or what we think it implies but unless the foundation behind the name is false then it would be a faltered organization. I'm not defending them because I see no need to defend. If it's wrong it's wrong, if it's right it's right.
God is truth, and his truth stands tall over any shadows.
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 29 May 2004 10:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

[clarification]GFD seems to indicate that he thinks that I believe Haile Selassie to be an incarnation of JAH. Maybe it is good to state that I do not believe that.

The word "Rastafari" is also used in various ways, which is recognizable for most people familiair with the movement. Jah ofcourse is the Rastafari, there is also the movement of Rastafari, and there is the name Tafari, with the title Ras, which is the name of Haile Selassie before he became the Emperor of Ethiopian.[/clarification]

Mike Roots wrote:
Maybe there is a sort of defiance to it- saying you call yourself RASTAfari, well I call myself CHRISTafari!


Exactly. See description of approach to people who are into heavy metal/satanism by Sanctuary, written earlier in this thread. Could this be a possibility in your opinnion, what I propose there?

Quote:
Why do Rastas say things like "Selassie IS...", (...) I do understand (...) salvation in Yeshua aren't dead- (...) Anyway, a little clarification on this would be good.


Personally I find it unneccesary to emphasize the state of Selassie's physical body. Even though Rita Marley went to the Emperor's "re-burial" and sent a message by doing so.... It's an argument which is not neccesary in a reasoning concerning HIM's (non-)divinity and that's why I won't say these things, because, indeed, those who "died" in Kristos still live.

Blaminack wrote:
Messian Dread wrote:
You can read in the quoted interpretation of Mark's bio, that the writer wrote: "getting into violence etc, and "eventually" into Rastafari before becoming born again". This shows a mind set in which the so called Rastafarianism is seen as an extreme form of being not born again, I hope I am still clear.

I see the point of what Mark said in a totally differant way, as I am sure you would have guessed ahead of time.
I think the point being made is that he was searching for something, and he didn't know what but soon found that Rasta was not what he was looking for.


Yes, you see the point in a different way, not really seeing a different point, though. I am aware of the fact that you indeed look at it differently, but we are looking at the same point.
For me, the perspective from which I see it, is from the perspective of a dreadlocksman. From a perspective of those real Rastas that I know too. I do not like to see them in one line with gangsters. Couldn't they have been influential in bringing Mark Mohr to the God of Creation? Couldn't they have subtly showed him that Yesus isn't the god he refused to acknowledge as a child? Or otherwise, couldn't they have been used by Jah to change Mark Mohr from rebelling against Jah into being open for Him?

Quote:
Jetze, I think that part of the problem with this discussion is that you accuse us as "Christian Fans of Christafari" of using over reaching generalizations. But I believe that you do the same thing. Every single idea of the Rasta teachings wrong in our view, yet that is how you like to portray us.


Perhaps that shows the neccesity for threads like this, in which we can all get to know each other better. It will become more clear for me that there are actual differences between you (which is ofcourse the reason why there shouldn't be generalization, yes?) when we discuss these matters.

I also am more interested in the differences then in things we agree on, when it comes to discussions. When we all agree then we do not have much to discuss other then "yes I agree". But it is also good and neccesary too to know common ground as to not take the discussion in a different bigger context. I hope we are inteligent enough to do this and I think we are. And that is not a generalization...

Quote:
We are however very specific, in other areas and these areas are vaild. One Selassie is not Christ. And we all know and understand that not all Rasta believe that, we are seeking to reach the ones who do with that message. You also have made it a point to place on your site the interviews that show HIMs teaching on this. Therefore I see this as a place of commonality with a differant approach. The other area of contention is obviously the use of Ganja. We all know where we all stand on this topic.


Who are the "we"?
Anyway, the specific parts are clear, and yes we agree on one and not on another one. And yes, we know where we stand and let's not discuss herby here
We do not believe Selassie to be an incarnation of JAH. Still we have, what you call, different approaches and thing. Do you think that only the ganja thing would be our difference?
I think not.
I am trying to find out just how much Christafari(ans) is/are connected to the Churchical world, to the ""Christian System" or "establishment". And I am not talking about the Body of Kristos here.

Quote:
You had a problem in that Christafari made Rasta look to be a bad thing. I think that we would all agree that for some it has been.

Then why are these words unchanged on the website for years, providing "information" for people which is admittidly inaccuarate or at least "ineffecient"?

Quote:
The mix that is taking place in not really one of Christianity and Rasta, but of Hippy styled New Age teachings and Rasta.


I agree with that and have written about it years ago allready.

http://dubroom.org/messiandread/itations0009.htm wrote:
RASTAFARI AND THE NEW AGE

Haile Selassie, the Lion of Judah, was a devout christian. Nowhere did he speak of a Christ being not Jesus. When he heard that people thought he was Jesus Christ, he rapidly sended an Archbishop to teach that he was not. He put great effort in worshipping the Most High, a thing unspeakable in the sight of a New Ager. New Agers follow themselves, because they think that Jah is everything and everything is Jah. They follow a doctrine which is in clear contradiction with Jah scripture. Still, unfortunately, New Age thinking has also found its way within the movement of Rastafari. I think there is such a big group of "new age Rastas" now, you can even speak of an esotherical house of Rastafari. Most of them are friendly, lovely people. They strive for righteousness in their own surrounding. I think, most of them don't realize where they are getting themselves into. Taken from scripture, one of the Rastaman's creeds is: "Righteousness will cover the earth". I am afraid, that a lot might not realize the new age proclaims: "SELF-Righteousness will cover the earth".

Especially since Haile Selassie left the visible spectrum, a feeding soil for a more mystical, esotherical form of spirituality was created. When perhaps most Rastas believed Selassie to be Christ Jesus, as long as the Ethiopian Lion of Judah was physically present, their worship was directed towards HIM, Rastafari. With the Emperor reported dead, some Rastas began to look inside for Selassie, worship gradually changed into spirituality of the new age kind. I think not so many New Age Rastafarians realize, that there is no place for worshipping Christ in the New Age way of thinking. This is also very logical, for they teach that you are god yourself. The more you get initiated, the more you will realize this.


Quote:
I hope too that you would be honest about what you see wrong with the Rasta Movement other than just glossing over things that should be seen. Bobo Shantys need the Real Christ. Pentecostals need the REAL Christ. Those of us who see the differances between what Modern Christianity has become and what the Bible teaches will be honest about that too I am sure.


I do not see a neccesity to say what is "wrong" with "the" movement. As said, two Rastas, three meditations. The things that makes one a Rasta I do not see as "wrong". Believing Selassie to be Jah doesn't make you a Rasta. Smoking herb doesn't make you a Rasta. Wearing dreads doesn't make you a Rasta. Making Reggae doesn't make you a Rasta. Still there are Rastas and you know one when you meet one. What would that be? Now indeed that would be an interesting thing to reason about.

Blessed Reasoning......
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JuHok
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PostPosted: 29 May 2004 12:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been reading this thread for awhile now. From where this started it have become a long and a good road to this point. I would call this a respectful reasoning from everyside, well there were some not so nice posts along the way but they were a little minority.

From what I have read this far I suggest that the reasoning should go more on thinking about what's rasta today? I mean for what I have read I get the influence that different people here view rasta in totally (or atleast little) different ways. That's something that should be discussed really before entering the problematics/non-problematics of using the name Christafari. Or another thing that you could also do is to stop using the word "rastafarian" anymore and using the 12 tribes/Bobo Shanty/Niyabinghi... that would clear the table a little when the "mysterious" word would be out of the way. This would ofcourse be easier but I think that word "Rasta" really needs defination. Then when everybody agrees about the meaning of rasta or atleast sees the way other people sees the word then it would be alot easier to talk about the name Christafari. I think also that it's the name Christafari that may contain problems, not really the name Lion of Zion. Atleast in my opinion the name Lion of Zion is totally biblical and it doesn't really contain any "dissing" against Rasta.

So what's everyones view of rasta? What makes someone a rasta? Nazarite vow? Belief in HIM as the reincarnation of Jesus Christ? Dreadlocks? Ganja? Ital livity? The condition of your heart? What is really the vital point that makes someone a rasta? I think that this is something that need clarification.

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ZIONSLAVE
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PostPosted: 29 May 2004 16:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. This will be a very interesting way to find some clarity. What makes a rasta? I must say that I have never considered myself a rasta. I think Messian Dread says a similar thing. However, he says that he does not correct one if they refer to him as such. Or does not feel that is a title that would really misinform someone too much because of the influence that the Rastafarian culture has had on him. This to me is the kind of statement that really interested me in this movement from the start. I must say that the rootsmans lifestyle was always an interesting enigma to me. Mainly because that in a time of spiritual confusion and even rebellion I did see a righteousness and purity about some aspects of Rastafarianism. I think that I knew nothing of Rasta culture until I talked to Jah about it and was searching for more understanding. I say this because I do not think that it is something to be taken flippantly or lightly because of the different directions that many sub- cultures in this movement are going.

I definatly could understand how the movement could influence a person in either a positive or a negative direction. I think that the real dividing line as with any sort of movement/ culture/ belief system/ ideology would be with what the individuals personal idea of Jesus Christ is. For someone who truly sees Christ as Jah then the Rasta viewpoint on the Bible, Jesus, Selassie, Zion, Babylon, Creationism, sin, righteousness, and whatever else is one that can be held up to light and truth. On the other hand you have a lost soul who is searching for something that could bring some meaning to thier life. Once they decide worship the creation insted of the creator they are heading toward a path of destruction. Then these aspects of Christian living or Rastafarianism can be looked at with any number of different opinions. HOWEVER, I think that the main difference in Rasta as opposed to some other ways of thinking or paths for a lost soul would actually come down Gods view of Rasta. Is Rastafarianism something to be seperated from? Is Rastafarianism something to be connected to? In Buddhism or New Age or other religions and movements we know these to be something to seperate ourselves from. In Rasta I see how it is not a thing to be looked at in this manner. This is the beauty of Rasta to me. What do we do with it? This is the reason why I am so interested in the words of you brothers and sisters. Because I am really starting to see things the way Jetze does,(in a much more elementary way) that instead of sort of combating the Rasta culture itself we can learn from and with it in order to see others come to fruition in thier journeys for consciousness with the truth of Christ as "Head Creator" and ultimately LORD GOD and Redeeming Savior.

So I would say what would make a Rasta could be (among other things) the individuals choice to oppose or learn from it.

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