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White Jesus/Western Christianity
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cappucinosmom



Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 57
Location: PA

PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 02:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

>what color or race a person sees Jesus as doesn't matter. What mattered was that people who talked as though they represented God acted in a way as to mirepresent Him

I don't see why the focus is on white's oppression of blacks, if this is the *real* issue. People have used God's name to oppress, kill, and cause mayhem. Hitler used it on white European Jews. The Ethiopian Orthodox do it do Evangelicals in thier country. The Catholic rulers in Europe murdered countless of thier own countrymen for being heretics. And yes, white people used it to oppress and enslave blacks.
So why the disdain for white people only? Let's disdain *anyone* who misuses and misrepresents The Lord, whatever color or part of the globe. Oh, and let's not make Jesus white or black. I'm sure the Bible would have said something about the strangeness if he looked anything but Mediterranean.
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woe yucka yoi
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 09:24    Post subject: NO MORE POLITICIZING Reply with quote

My friends,I have been trying to follow your discussion,but the logic in it all seems a bit strange.

If we talk about Jesus colour,then according to where he was born he would most likely have dark olive coloured skin and black hair,yes?

Meaning he is neither white or black,yes?

Looking at the history we see that Europeans(vikings,kelts,romans and greeks etc.)did all have many Gods.As for USA there were the indians wich also had a form of polyteism.Africa did also have polyteism.China and India there own view of God and in Australia the aborigines were also polyteistic.The only place on earth were people believed in one God was in Israel,all christians know that,yes?That's why Jesus was born there,yes?

When the white race "adopted" Christianity and starting to present Jesus trough art,they presented him white.Are we sure that the reason was to proclaim "the white race superiority" to empower the opportunity to supress human beings with other colours?Or was it so that people could easier identify and embrace this Man who claimed to be God if they thought of him as white?Lets not forget that we talk about a total revolution in the hearts and lifes of all PAGANS WITH WHITE SKIN AT THAT TIME.
How could the societies cope with this dramatic change?
I am just trying to put things in order,since i think your discussion has mixed political,racial and spiritual influences and has become just a mess.

(I do not claim to know anything at all,I am just giving you my views as a total outsider,not knowing that much about rasta.)

The white race has behaved like pigs througout the world,they have killed,raped,enslaved many people.That is why the western world is seen as Babylon.Does that mean that everything WHITE=BABYLON?(=racism?)

Do not the people in Africa and Jamaica do the same thing when saying Jesus is black?That is,trying to be able to adapt and identify with THE SON OF MAN?

But to me this shows a political Jesus,and of course then all of this above is also racial.Political is ALWAYS racial!(Skincolour,beautiful-ugly,rich-poor,male-female or whatever.)
JESUS IS NOT POLITICS.
The word poli in greek means town,politis the inhabitant and politiki the way to lead the behaviour in a group of people.OBSERVE,NOT SPIRITUALLY,ONLY MENTALY.

Sins that are made by people claiming to be christians can not be politicalized,because then we lose the way as christians.
Not to say that not ANYONE will turn to our Saviour...OUR SINS CAN NOT BE GUIDELINES FOR HOW PEOPLE SEE CHRISTIANITY.MEANING ALSO IT IS A SIN TO PRESENT A POLITICAL JESUS.

Just look at all the mess.Priests and pastors accused of childmalesting,going to prostitutes,homosexual priests or whatever.
It is the same thing.Should i puke and say bye bye to the church and draw the line saying that christianity stinks?
If i politicalize,yes.

Indira Ghandi said once:We love Jesus,but we can not see him among you,thats why we do not become christians.We do not want your lifes.
Same thing as rastas point of view then...BABYLON

The conclusion to me is that I can see why people react like they do according to Jesus whatever colour,but I do think it is a big sin to continue feeding this behaviour into people.It is really a kind of form of exploating OUR SAVIOUR for political reasons,wherever we cLaim him being black or white.It is time to finally LEARN something from the history.

Lets just LIVE HIS LOVE SO PEOPLE CAN SEE CHRIST.When we open our hearts and let love in,bitterness and pains of generations goes away.
HE IS ABLE TO HEAL US ALL.GLORY TO OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.
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woe yucka yoi
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 09:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way,politicalizing Jesus is not only skincolour,it is also for example presenting a "Christian Jesus"that is all lovable accepting thousand sins in his church such as homosexuality,abortions,premarriage sex,divorces,money greed and whatever our hearts pleases to enjoy sin and try sneaking away from our responsibility as followers of Christ.IN OTHER WORDS TRYING TO FIX OUR OWN JESUS THAT MATCHES OUR INTERESTS.Woe,do we need repentence brothers and sisters.WHAT ARE WE DOING TO OUR LORD,AND IN HIS NAME???
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Talking Dog
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 13:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Responding to one point at a time, Maggie said
Quote:
why the disdain for white people only? Let's disdain *anyone* who misuses and misrepresents The Lord, whatever color or part of the globe.


The discussion is in particular context - mainly that of how many rastas view "white" christianity and "White" representatons of Jesus. So it's mainly got that focus. Of course you are quite correct in what you say about religious perversions in all kinds of countries and cultures. We have a lot to be sorry about

If you look into the thinking of those who strongly support a "black" Jesus you will see that there are quite a lot of reasons within their position as to why they would see Him as more "black" than "mediterranean" in skin tone. It is quite interesting material to study and think about, whatever conclusion we do or don't come to.

But as I said earlier, the issue in this specific context is more to do with affirming that He wasn't WHITE, with all the historical resonances that that holds.
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Last edited by Talking Dog on 26 Nov 2003 13:33; edited 1 time in total
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Talking Dog
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 13:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

woe yucka yoi, you present a number of interesting points in your posts.


Quote:
Are we sure that the reason was to proclaim "the white race superiority" to empower the opportunity to supress human beings with other colours?Or was it so that people could easier identify and embrace this Man who claimed to be God if they thought of him as white


This is an important issue. I do not personally believe that the depiction of Jesus as white within prediominantly white cultures was necessarily "racist" or to act as downpression of non-whites. We see through many racial cultures that Jesus is represented within the ethnic imagery of that group as a way of being a sign that he came for all people, including them. Marcus Garvey spoke about this very issue when he said it was natural for Europeans to do this, so it was equally natural for Africans to need to see Christ "through their own spectacles" (i.e as black).

Now that is a different issue altogether from co-opting the image of a white Christ in a white racist system which was weilded like a weapon for the downpression of black people. In this case the imagery and what it represents ceases to be innocent and becomes problematic because of its associations. That is really the issue I am trying to deal with.

I am not quite sure I follow your line of thinking about "Jesus not being political". It depends how you are defining "political". To me there definitely has to be a "political" dimension to the Kingdom of God and the message of our Saviour, because it IS concerned with all the aspects of personal and social life. It is not just "spiritual" and "personal" in a vacuum. The rulers of His own time understood very well that His message was revolutionary and presented a challenge to the political powers and the elite of that day. It may not to be expressed like a contemporary political agenda, but the consequences surely are political, in terms of justice, peace, righteousness, economics, social relationships - it up-ends the established order and is political to the core! But not like teh vanity and corruption of worldly politricks.

I think it is one of the Big Lies which has come into a lot of contemporary christian thinking that the Kingdom of God has nothing to say about these matters.

It is all part of One Message which goes back to the patriarchs and the prophets in Israel. Satan kingdom move over, YAHWEH taking over.

Talking about the problems with the church, you say
Quote:
Should i puke and say bye bye to the church and draw the line saying that christianity stinks? If i politicalize,yes.



No that is not the right response, however you are viewing "political" . Again, it kind of depends on how you define "church". Most of us would not view the "institutional" expressions of christianity as being what constitutes the REAL church of Christ, which is His Body, comprised of those who are truly born of the Spirit. Our job is to acknowledge where there has been transgression and failure, past or present, and seek to live in a more authentic expression of the life and power of the Kingdom of God.

Your quote from Ghandi makes the same point I am making - that failure to acknowledge and try to deal with our failings and errors compromises our integrity and credibility as messengers in the eyes of those to whom we go. This doesn't mean we have to be perfect before we can communicate - just honest.
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kaya IsesaJah



Joined: 23 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 21:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings, I jus come in pon di thread, but its an important topic. I have been posting now about 4 years to different Rastafari sites, wid di message of Christ. It is difficult. For I self it was a very hard issue before I came to Christ. I still cannot envision Him as di way di books an pictures portray him, but what helped I woman was when I thought of Chinese people. Chinese mus vision a white or black christ. dem no see a chinese christ, or at least I woman never saw a chinese christ. It was then that me 'realeyes' di truth, dat each man Iception will come to him, as marcus garvey seh, thru dem own 'spectacles', culturally. It mek I think seh I will recognise Christ, no matter Him look pon di rapture time. If Him black, or white, or chinese, or all golden me nuh know wha Him gwan look like, nuh true? But me jus sure me fi recognise Him. thru I own culturally slanted spectacles, becaw dat wha salvation assures I woman.
Give thanks fi di topic still
in His Love an Light
kaya I
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woe yucka yoi
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2003 22:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking dog,thanks for taking your time and responding so detailed to my post.

What i meant about going political about Jesus was USING Jesus in non spiritual ways to achieve influenses in this worlds system,whatever they may be.Then we are back again to some big mistakes that has already been made in history,with terrible consequenses for peoples views on Christianity.There will always be someone who uses this for evil purposes.

I don't know if I agree that it has to be a political dimension to the Kingdom of God.We live in this world,but are not of this world....
That there is and always will be traces of Jesus,cosequences,in this worlds system is obvious,but maybe we try too hard to create something that wasn't meant to be created??I do not know.Read the following and please give me your opinion on it.


This is a letter from an unknown author 100 years after Christ sent to a man named Diognetos:

The Christians are not separeted from other people,nor by countries,languages or traditions.
They do not live in their own countries or speaking with strange dialects or living strangely.
Their teachings are not created by wise mens thoughts.
They live in the cities of the greeks,as well as in barbarian countries,wherever the faith put them,and they use THAT country's traditions as in clothing,eating and anything that has to do with everyday life.
Thats the mystic thing about them.
They live in their homecountries,but as if they were guests.
They have the same rights as every citizen,but they cope with difficulties as if they were strangers in that country.
Every country is their homecountry,and every homecountry is unknown to them.
They marry and have children,but they keep all of their children.
Their tables are open to all,but not their beds.
They exist in the flesh,but do not live in the flesh.
They stay on earth,but their recidence is in heaven.
They obey their countries laws,but they exceed them with their own living.
They love everybody but are persecuted by all men.
They are unknown,but are being condemned.
They get killed,but become alive.
They are poor,but make many men rich.
They lack everything,but have abundance of everything.
They are dishonoured,but in the dishonour they are glorified.
They are cursed by men,but they bless everone.
They are insulted,but they give praise.
When they make good they are being punished as if they were evil.When they are punished they rejoice like if they got new life.
The ones that hate them can not give you a reson to why they do hate them.
Whatever the soul is in the body,so are the christians in the world.


When i meditated on that text i was really swept off my feet.Do you understand now what i mean?Blessings
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cappucinosmom



Joined: 25 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2003 00:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

>When the white race "adopted" Christianity and starting to present Jesus trough art,they presented him white.Are we sure that the reason was to proclaim "the white race superiority" to empower the opportunity to supress human beings with other colours?Or was it so that people could easier identify and embrace this Man

I think this was the intent. I've always been amazed that each culture seems to portray Jesus as one of thier own (which is actually pretty cool, since He is not just Messiah to the Jews, but Savior to the World). In Ethiopia, I saw countless pictures of Jesus looking just like an Ethiopian. I have a beautiful batik at home depicting Jesus and the woman with the issue of blood--he looks Indonesian. I have seen in Asian art, Asian-looking Jesus. Plenty of African art portrays Him as black. Even though I grew up in white American culture, and was exposed to many "blond" Jesus pictures, I do not think of Him that way. It would be idiotic to do so.

I guess I find it odd (as a "white" person) that people would focus on us as a "race" as some horrible kind of system (maybe someone could explain to me exactly what the Bablyon system is, and why whites are it). Yes, whites have been piggish. But piggish behavior is not confined to us! Every race and every culture has at some point in history done horrible and loathesome things. Some still do it now.
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