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Would Jesus Bomb Iraq?
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Mylene
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Joined: 31 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 16:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems this discussion as made a turn. . . I'd like to reply to MD about his response to my post: When we believed, repented and asked for forgiveness, did we not become a child of God? The wake-up call and verse I stated is for ALL Christians, not just in the USA, but worldwide. Would you agree that God used the terrorists to show America's vulnerability? And would God use America against another nation? It was posted that we should love our enemies. Does that also mean that we condone their actions? As Christians, do we sit back and allow atrocities to be committed against another human because we shouldn't be involved in wars? Does that go with WWII, should America not have gone to war then?

America was founded on Christian values, the time the Pilgrims came on the shores of Plymouth Rock. They were escaping religious persecution from their homeland. The Constitution include freedom of religion and freedom from government tyranny. I don't agree with everything that Bush is doing. Our rights as American citizens is on the brink of being taken away under the homeland security umbrella to fight terrorism. The left wants to take away my right to protect myself and call me intolerant when I voice my Christian views. One thing that makes me smile when Bush gives his speech, he always throws in a Scripture and what does God say, "It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

I don't believe America will be a super power much longer. A world catastrophic event may signal in a one world government. Look how much power the UN has over the nations. The EU has amassed great influence. The hatred towards the tiny country of Israel and its people. The rise of Russia (again). All this has been foretold by God (read Zech. 12:2-3) and in the end "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11 Don't give the US too much credit.

So what kind of Christians are we? "I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD." Ezekiel 22:30-31 Is this still applicable for today?

Habakkuk is a good read.
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For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1 Cor 1:18]

Oh, cease to glorify man, Who has only a breath in his nostrils! For by what does he merit esteem? [Isaiah 2:22]
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Talking Dog
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 17:03    Post subject: Would Jesus Bomb Iraq? Reply with quote

Quote:
..love our enemies. Does that also mean that we condone their actions? As Christians, do we sit back and allow atrocities to be committed against another human because we shouldn't be involved in wars? Does that go with WWII, should America not have gone to war then?


You confuse the actions of state and individual, and you also confuse the citizenship of Christians as those in the Kingdom of God and those outside the Kingdom. The argument about the US and WW2 is thus not valid, because the US is a state, not a Christian, and not the church. What states do is their business, but individual Christian ethics cannot be scaled up to equate to or sanction the actions of secular states.



It is not the job of Christians to wage war. If I am told to love my enemies it is hard to see how killing them fulfils this function. The role of the Christian is either to suffer personally while praying for their abusers, or passively resist and defend themselves or others. Humanly this is impossible, of course - only the Spirit can enable us to live or die like this.

I challenge anyone to support Christian involvement in miltary warfare with the intent of causing death by reference to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles - I don't see it.

Should we seek to stop "atrocities to be committed against another human" by committing the same atrocity against the aggresssor? Back to eye for an eye? The rationale that you (and others) imply leads to the logic of a Christian militia, waging war in the name of God. Something like Jihad, maybe....?
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 19:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,

Welcome back to the boards! I think that what you said to Mylene has it's good points but also where you said the States cannot be held to the same standard as individuals, is off. I say this because this is exactly what we as Americans are accused of. The state does something that Christians can't stand like legalise abortion and every one says America is Babylon. There seems to be a double standard in the application of the ideology and that is what bothers me. Is America a Christian Nation? I would say that if you ask the average person they would say at least it tried to be. Why? It is because we look at our neighbors and say they are in this deal just like us and we are trying to Serve God to the best of our ability so they must be too. Now granted that breaks down with the Government some where. But I think that can be said of any nation.....
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RasTalawa
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 19:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetze, InI see the point on the beasts...but could one not consider the arabian oil selling countries as one of the beasts of babylon as a whole???


Perhaps the battles of Babylon against itself should be none of our worry anyways?

Just a few more Reasonings...

PeaceLoveInity
RasTalawa
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Talking Dog
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 20:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill, I don't quite follow what you are saying - could you explain again what you think the double standard is?

Maybe I'm not answering your question, but I don't think it is possible to talk about " A Christian Country" or a "Christian State" - even where the roots of that country may have historically been more overtly christian at one time. Christians are christian, not political or geographical nation/state entities. Individuals may exert a greater or lesser influence on how much the actions of the state reflect Godly principles but in my view it is a fundamental error to think of ANY state being "christian".

To move on a step from this:
If some (or indeed, many) who make a christian profession hold power and authority in a state, it does not follow necessarily that their actions or decisions will reflect the Kingdom of God. Someone can be a christian but be completely misguided in their beliefs and values.

For me, the problem is that I see and hear a lot in America which talks openly and freely about christian faith, but at the level of national policy I do not see this being applied. There appears to be an underlying idea that God has chosen the US as a special nation to uniquely fulfil His purposes and that the "christian" US is thus acting as divinely led and blessed. You may disagree, but I see this as a dangerous and heretical delusion.
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Mylene
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 21:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is saying that the US has God's blessing in what it is doing. We have innocent blood being shed on our shores as well. What I'm saying is that God will use the US or any other country to do His will. Perhaps at this time it will be the US. God directs the hearts of men to do what He pleases, may he be Christian or not.

Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay." Luke 3:14 John didn't tell them to stop being a soldier. Jesus never said to the Centurion to quit his job. Putting our personal feelings aside, how would God look at this whole situation? Very sad indeed. Not one country is innocent. We are all guilty in sinning against God and we will all be judged according to our deeds.
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For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1 Cor 1:18]

Oh, cease to glorify man, Who has only a breath in his nostrils! For by what does he merit esteem? [Isaiah 2:22]
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coolpoete
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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2003 22:35    Post subject: Would Jesus Bomb Iraq Reply with quote

I have to agree with Mylene on this one for the simple fact that God is still and will always be in control no matter what we as man do. I don't agree with what our president may be doing, but to do nothing does not help either. When we look back at 9-11 and the fact that investigation proved that the government knew some of the things that were going to happen and did nothing is not what god had intended either.

What I think I am saying is maybe preparing for war as a last resort, under the right circumstances and considering all actions that could be and should be taken is not a bad idea. I don't think it is fair to judge America as "the babylon", although it seems as if many things that many Americans do will seem ungodly. It's like a one bad apple spoiling the whole bunch idea.

Another important scripture is Romans 13. It states that we should submit or respect or authorities. Then later on it says that if they do wrong, then they are sure to face his wrath. We do have a right to be concerned with going to war for the wrong reasons, but I appeal to you to all to focus on the bigger picture of things and not so much the smaller details. I do not believe that god is going to evaporate America and forsake his people because George Bush wants to go to war.

A friend of mine gave me the analogy of the mark of the beast awhile ago and it sticks to me to this day. The mark is not some tatoo, stamp or writing that appears on our body, but more so the things that we think (mark on your head) and what we do (mark on the hand). It is critical that we continue to strive to live in this world but not be of this world. Do not participate in bad-talking people because everyone around you is doing so. Yeah we have a shepard, but we are not all dumb sheep.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003 01:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,

I am sorry for not being clear. My thoughts were in a million places when I wrote this. This is the statment that prompted what I was trying to say....


I do understand the sensitivity of US brethren to what you feel to be "America-bashing", but I think some of the defences put forward about the Christian nature of America are very questionable.

Nearly all Americans I have met I have liked very much and there are a lot of things about AMERICANS, as people, that are commendable. But if we are to talk about America as a state and a system then, like all states and systems of this world, we are on a different matter.



On the one hand we are held to a Standard of perfection. And on the other we are considered Babylon. America as the largest "Power" has some responsibilties.... For example could you imagine the Moral backlash that would have happened if the US didn't get involved in WW2? If we had not then we would have been called every thing but a Christian Nation. Why do we go and try to police the world? Who else is? Is the UN doing that for real? See I think that the problem with the USA is that we do care while others don't as much. So many have a view that as long as the People of Iraq are suffering under the Sadam regiem over there and not here we don't have to do anything. Who will? Does the EU go and defend the people of Iraq? Granted that one aspect is only part of what this is about. But it is still a valid point. Many see that US as a big bully. But do the Iraqis benifit from Sadam (UN oil for food program) stealing thier lunch money to build a bigger palace? See I see Sadam as the Bully and the USA as the defender of the underdog here. Will the World be a safer place with Sadam out of power? I think so. That is what the Sanctions are about. Don't think so? Don't you think that the Oil prices would go down if there was free flow of trade? I don't think that this just about oil but about stability. If any of that is true then I do see a justifaction.
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