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Would Jesus Bomb Iraq?
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Talking Dog
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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003 10:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes of course God is in control, and yes, of course He will use states to bring judgement against other nations. This does not mean that the tool of His judgement is necessarily more righteous or "christian" than the other, as we see in Hebrew scripture with Nebuchadnezzar - Babylon being God's instrument of wrath against apostate Israel.

That aside, people don't seem to be grasping the central point which I am trying to get over. Although as Christians we live in particular nation-states, we owe them allegiance only insofar as they do not violate the principles of the Kingdom of God. Our King is not Bush or Blair, but Christ - and He should therefore have our primary allegiance.

Try to see the point that at a national level there is no such thing as a "christian" country. All (and I mean ALL) states serve interests other than those of the Kingdom, and those in the West are principally in servitude to the spirit of Babylon as far as I can see from my reading of scripture and the characteristics of this spirit's nature (not just the US).

Consequently these interests will often conflict with the values of the Kingdom as they act out their own power plays on the earth. When they conflict in this way the individual christain should recnise the conflict as such and not align with the unrighteous policies and actions of the state.

States will, when it suits them, wage war, kill, lie, extort and suppress in the name of national interest or security. A Christian may not do these things.

The confusion I see being articulated in some of the positions being articulated here is that people are speaking as though a state may be thought of in the same way as an individual christian. I repeat: a state can not be "christian". Nations will rise and fall and clash with each other on terms which are wholly outside the Kingdom of God. Ultimately they will all be judged for this.

The role of the Christian is to be a living sign, and in the church (ideally if not often in reality) a living community, which points to the reality of a Higher King, Higher Government, and a coming Kingdom of peace, love and righteousness. I maintain that this witness is fundamentally compromised if we think and act as though we are primarily citizens of the countries where we live, and swallow uncritically their ungodly structures, policies and actions whilst thinking them "christian".

Sorry to say it Bill, but I think the idea that the US intervenes around the world is because it "cares" is a little naive. From where I stand I observe that it only "cares" to the point of major intervention when there is a vested economic or political interest for the US. What happened in Rwanda? or Chechnya? or currently in Zimbabwe? The UK is equally guilty, of course.

But the point is not really to highlight the hypocrisy of states and their policies - this is inevitable. The point is to realise that we are meant to stand apart from these and maintain a distinct Kingdom perspective on these things - which, to my mind, does not endorse the use of violence and militarism. Don't buy into the lie.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003 13:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,

Naive maybe but more likely it is idealism on my part rather blissful ignorance....

You did bring up a good point about Rwanda. At the time you couldn't have heard me SCREAMING that Bill Clinton was a lying racist. Why was he shown as a hypocrite? Exactly as you have stated. He sent troops into Bosnia but not Rwanda. His involvment in Somolia was only enough to look like he was doing something.

Let's look at a issue like Rwanda or Somolia. Should someone not have intervened with military force? If there is one obviously oppressive regiem murdering the masses is that not a righteous case to fight?

I think that naivte is for those that think that war is not going to happen. For bad and sometimes right reasons. If this were not true, Pete would be speaking German right now...

Until the time of Christ's return there will be wars and as we get closer there will be more and more. Ecclesiastes says that there is a time for war right or wrong. He nor I have said that it is a good thing but some battles do have to be fought. War is an ugly thing, but the fact is that God Himself has started them in history and I am sure will do so in the near future. Our part is to be righteous, compassionate, and loving. Yes it is hard to do this while in a war....But the truth is David did that. He fought on the side of righteousness.

True enough our battles are not against flesh and blood but against spiritual powers in high places. So this brings me to a question... How many have actually prayed that George Bush would have wisdom and be able to take the RIGHT course? I see lots of critics but no prayer warriors.....
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Talking Dog
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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003 16:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand where you are coming from Bill, but you still miss my central point.

Nations will make wars against each other various reasons. Certainly military intervention overthrew Hitler in WW2 - dafuer spreche ich Englisch und nicht Deutsch so you can say that the following generations in Europe have benefitted from the just war of that time. That is not of itself a rationale for Christians to support war, in that or any other circumstance.

The argument behind this position goes something like "it is right to use force and to kill if by so doing, you prevent a greater evil". You fight a war to prevent a war. You kill people to avoid some other people getting killed. Hmmm.

This is the logic of war which is generally applied by states today (except for those who set out as expansionist aggressors, of course). My central point again is that THE CHRISTIAN is required to live according to the principles of the Kingdom and the Gospel, not the logic of secular or religious statehood. SO:

If Jesus tells me to "love your enemy" how do I square this with supporting action by myself or my state which will wound, maim or kill him? And which, in the case of modern warfare, will also take out many non-combatants in "collateral damage"? Paul says in Romans 12 "do not repay anyone with evil but overcome evil with good" which seems to take away the option of either first strike or retributive military action.

Let's look at the passage in Matthew 5 in context:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"


This is tricky stuff. "Do not resist an evil person"? If someone strikes you, let them strike you again? If someone exploits you offer to serve them even more?

Can't be right, can it?

If someone can explain how these commandments of our saviour can be squared with a Christian engaging in, or supporting, military action, I will be curious to hear an exposition. What states do is their business, and we should engage debate with what they do "in our name". But what the Christian does is God's business, and it seems to me that He requires a totally different approach to conflict and abuse than that which the world uses. "Taking up our cross" might be more literal than we would wish in some of these scenarios.

David is an interesting example. As I recall he was excluded by God from being the man who could build the temple because he had shed blood. Does this tell us anything?

Bill, I'm not setting out to be critical, and certainly not to bash the US or anyone else. But I do think these issues need some serious reasoning on because there is a lot of inconsistent thinking in the churches about it.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2003 01:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,

I must say that you are very articulate and well versed in Scripture. Some of your points are hard to refute as they are quite solid, still I disagree with parts. You have tried to bring this discussion from a national level to a individual level. That's fine let's talk about it on a micro level. Imagine that you live in a small town were most people know their neighbors well. Kids play in the streets with no worries. People work and play together. Then a man comes to live in this town. And after a little while children begin to go missing. This goes on for a long time and finaly that man is suspected to be the one causing the disappearances. Before there was joy on the streets. After he got there, nothing but fear and paranoia. Suspicions. After all was said and done. Your child comes up missing. There is evidence that this man has your child. What actions are needed? Do you go and say hey can I come in and look around? Or do you go in with force if needed?

This is in essence what Iraq has done to the world. (of course not in a literal sense, but figurative)

As a Christian we are able to forgive for the wrongs done to us. But then we also must be just as God has commanded. We are to walk with righteous judgement. God commands us to live under laws and regulations that are to be enforced to maintain order. This is why it is not wrong for a Christian to be a Policeman or Military man. God NEVER commanded us to turn our heads from civic responsibility. Would the world be as oppressed as it is now if there were more REAL Christians in those postions?

Now again on a national level we are to maintian order. Enforce the legal structure. And yes Sadam is breaking international law....
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Messian Dread
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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2003 12:46    Post subject: Re: Amerika's place in babylon Reply with quote

Greetings,

Numor got humor: he "swears" that the U$ "will never take over the world". I think that he makes a valid point here, though. The usa is (like Europe, like the country I live in) part of the system called babylon, who IN NAME is Christian but IN REALITY is following satan. Usa have her place, no more no less. They are not the leader of the world. Instead, the Bible clearly tells us who is the leader of this world. He is currently in heaven, accusing the brethren day and night, and he will be cast down in a not so far away future (see the Apocalypse). Satanic rituals are repeatly being connected with the high ranking leaders in politics, media and culture. For those who have studied subjects such as the illuminati, it is not so difficult to see what's going on. America (like Europe, like the country I live in) is built on eso-theric thoughts, satanic in essence and practice. The line can be traced back to babylon and even further. The so-called "statue of liberty" is in fact a massive image of Semirames (the wife of Nimrod who founded babylon).

Can someone tell me what is so "christian" in xeno-slavery, massive deportation of a certain people from one place in the world to another. Can someone tell me what is so christian in killing native people and put them in "reservations", like they are animals? Can someone tell me what is so christian in conquering some countries, stealing it from it's natural resources and sovereignity? Can someone tell me how this can be seen as "fruit of the Spirit"?

It reminds me of Paulus who warns us: "if someone calls with a different Jesus you would accept him gladly, but if I come with Yesus Kristos you have a problem with that" (Paraphrased).

So mind who you defend. And mind even more where you identify yourselves with. Where your heart is there will your treasure be.

I have no problem with what some call "amerika bashing", for me it's "chanting down babylon", a phrase I'm sure at least some of you might have heard somewhere . I have a biblical foundation as well, for those who think I am parroting Reggae Music: We are told to reprove and expose the mystery of iniquity, the worx of satan to get the world ready for his government. The problem I have more is that some here seem to identify themselves, and even their "christian identity", with the usa, rather than with the Kingdom of Jesus. Talking Dog has brought up some very valid points in this dicsussion concerning this. He has shown that obedience to authority stops where Yesus says a different thing.

Someone says, John told the soldier that he should be happy with his loan and not that he had to leave the army. The soldiers were "keeping law and order", so to speak. They were what we would now call "police". Did John call on the people to join the army? Now that would be a valid argument. But you can't find it in the Bible.

This whole idea of usa having to be "policeman of the world" has it's basis in the idea that "the world is one". It's serving the purposes of the satanic "mystery of iniquity" (that is the plan to get satan on the throne and people worshipping him as god).

It's kind of cheap to always come up with WW2. If everyone would follow Yesus, there would not be enough soldiers to fight the wars of the high ranking who are pulling the strings. Some say: "U$ liberated europe and therefore it is okay to fight in a war as a soldier". Non-sense.

Don't you see that by complying to babylon rule, to an extend which goes way AGAINST Yesus' Teachings, you are maintaining it? It is so much better to call on people NOT to join the army, NOT to fight. It's summarized in an old saying:

SUPPOSE THERE IS A WAR..............
........AND NOBODY GOES


Christians are rightfully against abortion and "euthanazia". Why? Because it's murder. But it seems like (and I am saying this since the 1980's so don't think I say it to "you") there is care for life before birth and at the end of life, but not in between. Is murdering okay when you do it for babylon? Abortion, Euthanazia and Wars are all murder and sin, we should not participate in.

I would, at the end of my little contribution, would paraphrase another scripture: "Temptations (to commit sin) must come, but woooooh unto those that bring it".
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Mylene
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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2003 14:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can someone tell me what is so "christian" in xeno-slavery, massive deportation of a certain people from one place in the world to another. Can someone tell me what is so christian in killing native people and put them in "reservations", like they are animals? Can someone tell me what is so christian in conquering some countries, stealing it from it's natural resources and sovereignity? Can someone tell me how this can be seen as "fruit of the Spirit"?


I hope you're referring to the Khartoum government of Northern Sudan, to the Rwanda war, to Iraq, China, etc., because that is still happening in that part of the world. If you are referring to the US that is in the past, the people who helped put a stop to those practices were CHRISTIANS! It was their convictions that had them out there decrying the practices. The US is not the only country guilty of such practices, but the only one that everyone wants to villify. I am not condoning what happened in the US past but would like your outrage to be directed in the present situations in other countries. There are people literally dying, being tortured, enslaved, imprisoned because they do not hold to the same principles of the leaders of their country. And this includes brothers and sisters in Christ.

If Christians held back from the world what use is it to be a light to the world? We are to be meek, but not weak. No we don't go looking for war, but to voice our opinion if it is a war for right and not for conquering. How is the world going to know this if Christians do not involve themselves. Yes, we are not of this world, but we are in it and need to make a difference. We are the conscience in this place until the time we are taken out.

We are not to take up challenges (turning the other cheek), but we need to speak out just as the John did with Herod, the Apostles in the synagogues and marketplaces. They were pro-active.
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coolpoete
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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2003 03:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, well I think that the general consent is that America should not go to war. How then do we (and I don't just mean Americans) deal with Saddam, and issues that are going on in Iraq that affect the whole world?
Do we just sit back and watch as terrorists do their work?

How does America offer assistance to other countries that need help and are asking for help without getting involved? What is the solution I ask.
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blaminack
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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2003 06:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow

Man you have a great way of bringing this all to a point! Respect! Let us all now that our opinions have been laid out ask ourselves now what is the right solution. My point has been that war may be just the thing that God will allow for His purposes.

I don't like war or killing any more than any other Christian.

So how do we handle this situation? I don't belive that God would have nothing be done. Sadam is a huge sponser of terrorism. He is a murderer. He is a bully and a has designs on even more murder. What should we do?
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