Joined: 29 May 2002
|Posted: 04 Feb 2003
10:48 Post subject:
|Yes of course God is in control,
and yes, of course He will use states to bring judgement against
other nations. This does not mean that the tool of His judgement is
necessarily more righteous or "christian" than the other, as we see
in Hebrew scripture with Nebuchadnezzar - Babylon being God's
instrument of wrath against apostate Israel. |
people don't seem to be grasping the central point which I am trying
to get over. Although as Christians we live in particular
nation-states, we owe them
allegiance only insofar as they do not violate the principles of the
Kingdom of God. Our King is not Bush or Blair, but Christ -
and He should therefore have our primary allegiance.
see the point that at a national level there is no such thing as a
"christian" country. All (and I mean ALL) states serve interests
other than those of the Kingdom, and those in the West are
principally in servitude to the spirit of Babylon as far as I can
see from my reading of scripture and the characteristics of this
spirit's nature (not just the US).
interests will often conflict with the values of the Kingdom as they
act out their own power plays on the earth. When they conflict in
this way the individual christain should recnise the conflict as
such and not align with the unrighteous policies and actions of the
States will, when it suits them, wage war, kill, lie,
extort and suppress in the name of national interest or security. A
Christian may not do these things.
The confusion I see being
articulated in some of the positions being articulated here is that
people are speaking as though a state may be thought of in the same
way as an individual christian. I repeat: a state can not be
"christian". Nations will rise and fall and clash with each other on
terms which are wholly outside the Kingdom of God. Ultimately they
will all be judged for this.
The role of the Christian is to
be a living sign, and in the church (ideally if not often in
reality) a living community, which points to the reality of a Higher
King, Higher Government, and a coming Kingdom of peace, love and
righteousness. I maintain that this witness is fundamentally
compromised if we think and act as though we are primarily citizens
of the countries where we live, and swallow uncritically their
ungodly structures, policies and actions whilst thinking them
Sorry to say it Bill, but I think the idea that
the US intervenes around the world is because it "cares" is a little
naive. From where I stand I observe that it only "cares" to the
point of major intervention when there is a vested economic or
political interest for the US. What happened in Rwanda? or Chechnya?
or currently in Zimbabwe? The UK is equally guilty, of course.
But the point is not really to highlight the hypocrisy of
states and their policies - this is inevitable. The point is to
realise that we are meant to stand apart from these and maintain a
distinct Kingdom perspective on these things - which, to my mind,
does not endorse the use of violence and militarism. Don't buy into
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
|Posted: 04 Feb 2003
13:15 Post subject:
Naive maybe but
more likely it is idealism on my part rather blissful ignorance....
You did bring up a good point about Rwanda. At the time you
couldn't have heard me SCREAMING that Bill Clinton was a lying
racist. Why was he shown as a hypocrite? Exactly as you have stated.
He sent troops into Bosnia but not Rwanda. His involvment in Somolia
was only enough to look like he was doing something.
look at a issue like Rwanda or Somolia. Should someone not have
intervened with military force? If there is one obviously oppressive
regiem murdering the masses is that not a righteous case to fight?
I think that naivte is for those that think that war is not
going to happen. For bad and sometimes right reasons. If this were
not true, Pete would be speaking German right now...
the time of Christ's return there will be wars and as we get closer
there will be more and more. Ecclesiastes says that there is a time
for war right or wrong. He nor I have said that it is a good thing
but some battles do have to be fought. War is an ugly thing, but the
fact is that God Himself has started them in history and I am sure
will do so in the near future. Our part is to be righteous,
compassionate, and loving. Yes it is hard to do this while in a
war....But the truth is David did that. He fought on the side of
True enough our battles are not against flesh
and blood but against spiritual powers in high places. So this
brings me to a question... How many have actually prayed that George
Bush would have wisdom and be able to take the RIGHT course? I see
lots of critics but no prayer warriors.....
Joined: 29 May 2002
|Posted: 04 Feb 2003
16:07 Post subject:
|I understand where you are coming
from Bill, but you still miss my central point. |
make wars against each other various reasons. Certainly military
intervention overthrew Hitler in WW2 - dafuer spreche ich Englisch
und nicht Deutsch so you can say that the following generations in Europe
have benefitted from the just war of that time. That is not of
itself a rationale for Christians to support war, in that or any
The argument behind this position goes
something like "it is right to use force and to kill if by so doing,
you prevent a greater evil". You fight a war to prevent a war. You
kill people to avoid some other people getting killed. Hmmm.
This is the logic of war which is generally applied by
states today (except for those who set out as expansionist
aggressors, of course). My central point again is that THE CHRISTIAN
is required to live according to the principles of the Kingdom and
the Gospel, not the logic of secular or religious statehood. SO:
If Jesus tells me to "love your enemy" how do I square this
with supporting action by myself or my state which will wound, maim
or kill him? And which, in the case of modern warfare, will also
take out many non-combatants in "collateral damage"? Paul says in
Romans 12 "do not repay anyone with evil but overcome evil with
good" which seems to take away the option of either first strike or
retributive military action.
Let's look at the passage in
Matthew 5 in context:
38 "You have
heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you
on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if
someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your
cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with
him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn
away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who
45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"
This is tricky stuff. "Do not resist an evil
person"? If someone strikes you, let them strike you again? If
someone exploits you offer to serve them even more?
right, can it?
If someone can explain how these commandments of our saviour
can be squared with a Christian engaging in, or supporting, military
action, I will be curious to hear an exposition. What states do is
their business, and we should engage debate with what they do "in
our name". But what the Christian does is God's business, and it
seems to me that He requires a totally different approach to
conflict and abuse than that which the world uses. "Taking up our
cross" might be more literal than we would wish in some of these
David is an interesting example. As I recall he
was excluded by God from being the man who could build the temple
because he had shed blood. Does this tell us anything?
I'm not setting out to be critical, and certainly not to bash the US
or anyone else. But I do think these issues need some serious
reasoning on because there is a lot of inconsistent thinking in the
churches about it.
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
|Posted: 05 Feb 2003
01:05 Post subject:
I must say that you
are very articulate and well versed in Scripture. Some of your
points are hard to refute as they are quite solid, still I disagree
with parts. You have tried to bring this discussion from a national
level to a individual level. That's fine let's talk about it on a
micro level. Imagine that you live in a small town were most people
know their neighbors well. Kids play in the streets with no worries.
People work and play together. Then a man comes to live in this
town. And after a little while children begin to go missing. This
goes on for a long time and finaly that man is suspected to be the
one causing the disappearances. Before there was joy on the streets.
After he got there, nothing but fear and paranoia. Suspicions. After
all was said and done. Your child comes up missing. There is
evidence that this man has your child. What actions are needed? Do
you go and say hey can I come in and look around? Or do you go in
with force if needed?
This is in essence what Iraq has done
to the world. (of course not in a literal sense, but figurative)
As a Christian we are able to forgive for the wrongs done to
us. But then we also must be just as God has commanded. We are to
walk with righteous judgement. God commands us to live under laws
and regulations that are to be enforced to maintain order. This is
why it is not wrong for a Christian to be a Policeman or Military
man. God NEVER commanded us to turn our heads from civic
responsibility. Would the world be as oppressed as it is now if
there were more REAL Christians in those postions?
on a national level we are to maintian order. Enforce the legal
structure. And yes Sadam is breaking international
27 Jul 2002
|Posted: 05 Feb 2003
12:46 Post subject: Re:
Amerika's place in babylon
humor: he "swears" that the U$ "will never take over the world". I
think that he makes a valid point here, though. The usa is (like
Europe, like the country I live in) part of the system called
babylon, who IN NAME is Christian but IN REALITY is following satan.
Usa have her place, no more no less. They are not the leader of the
world. Instead, the Bible clearly tells us who is the leader of this
world. He is currently in heaven, accusing the brethren day and
night, and he will be cast down in a not so far away future (see the
Apocalypse). Satanic rituals are repeatly being connected with the
high ranking leaders in politics, media and culture. For those who
have studied subjects such as the illuminati, it is not so difficult
to see what's going on. America (like Europe, like the country I
live in) is built on eso-theric thoughts, satanic in essence and
practice. The line can be traced back to babylon and even further.
The so-called "statue of liberty" is in fact a massive image of
Semirames (the wife of Nimrod who founded babylon).
someone tell me what is so "christian" in xeno-slavery, massive
deportation of a certain people from one place in the world to
another. Can someone tell me what is so christian in killing native
people and put them in "reservations", like they are animals? Can
someone tell me what is so christian in conquering some countries,
stealing it from it's natural resources and sovereignity? Can
someone tell me how this can be seen as "fruit of the Spirit"?
It reminds me of Paulus who warns us: "if someone calls with
a different Jesus you would accept him gladly, but if I come with
Yesus Kristos you have a problem with that" (Paraphrased).
So mind who you defend. And mind even more where you
identify yourselves with. Where your heart is there will your
I have no problem with what some call "amerika
bashing", for me it's "chanting down babylon", a phrase I'm sure at
least some of you might have heard somewhere . I have a biblical
foundation as well, for those who think I am parroting Reggae Music:
We are told to reprove and expose the mystery of iniquity, the worx
of satan to get the world ready for his government. The problem I
have more is that some here seem to identify themselves, and even
their "christian identity", with the usa, rather than with the
Kingdom of Jesus. Talking Dog has brought up some very valid points
in this dicsussion concerning this. He has shown that obedience to
authority stops where Yesus says a different thing.
says, John told the soldier that he should be happy with his loan
and not that he had to leave the army. The soldiers were "keeping
law and order", so to speak. They were what we would now call
"police". Did John call on the people to join the army? Now that
would be a valid argument. But you can't find it in the Bible.
This whole idea of usa having to be "policeman of the world"
has it's basis in the idea that "the world is one". It's serving the
purposes of the satanic "mystery of iniquity" (that is the plan to
get satan on the throne and people worshipping him as god).
It's kind of cheap to always come up with WW2. If everyone
would follow Yesus, there would not be enough soldiers to fight the
wars of the high ranking who are pulling the strings. Some say: "U$
liberated europe and therefore it is okay to fight in a war as a
Don't you see that by complying to
babylon rule, to an extend which goes way AGAINST Yesus' Teachings,
you are maintaining it? It is so much better to call on people NOT
to join the army, NOT to fight. It's summarized in an old saying:
THERE IS A WAR..............
........AND NOBODY GOES
Christians are rightfully against abortion and "euthanazia".
Why? Because it's murder. But it seems like (and I am saying this
since the 1980's so don't think I say it to "you") there is care for
life before birth and at the end of life, but not in between. Is
murdering okay when you do it for babylon? Abortion, Euthanazia and
Wars are all murder and sin, we should not participate in.
would, at the end of my little contribution, would paraphrase
another scripture: "Temptations (to commit sin) must come, but
woooooh unto those that bring it".
Personal Site: http://messiandread.dubroom.org/
31 Oct 2002
|Posted: 05 Feb 2003
14:37 Post subject:
|Can someone tell me what is so "christian" in
xeno-slavery, massive deportation of a certain people from one
place in the world to another. Can someone tell me what is so
christian in killing native people and put them in
"reservations", like they are animals? Can someone tell me
what is so christian in conquering some countries, stealing it
from it's natural resources and sovereignity? Can someone tell
me how this can be seen as "fruit of the Spirit"?
I hope you're
referring to the Khartoum government of Northern Sudan, to the
Rwanda war, to Iraq, China, etc., because that is still happening in
that part of the world. If you are referring to the US that is in
the past, the people who helped put a stop to those practices were
CHRISTIANS! It was their convictions that had them out there
decrying the practices. The US is not the only country guilty of
such practices, but the only one that everyone wants to villify. I
am not condoning what happened in the US past but would like your
outrage to be directed in the present situations in other countries.
There are people literally dying, being tortured, enslaved,
imprisoned because they do not hold to the same principles of the
leaders of their country. And this includes brothers and sisters in
If Christians held back from the world what use is
it to be a light to the world? We are to be meek, but not weak. No
we don't go looking for war, but to voice our opinion if it is a war
for right and not for conquering. How is the world going to know
this if Christians do not involve themselves. Yes, we are not of
this world, but we are in it and need to make a difference. We are
the conscience in this place until the time we are taken out.
We are not to take up challenges (turning the other cheek),
but we need to speak out just as the John did with Herod, the
Apostles in the synagogues and marketplaces. They were
For the word of the cross is
foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being
saved it is the power of God. [1 Cor 1:18]
Oh, cease to
glorify man, Who has only a breath in his nostrils! For by what does
he merit esteem? [Isaiah 2:22]
14 Jul 2002
Location: From St. Maarten, living in
|Posted: 06 Feb 2003
03:33 Post subject:
|Ok, well I think that the general
consent is that America should not go to war. How then do we (and I
don't just mean Americans) deal with Saddam, and issues that are
going on in Iraq that affect the whole world? |
Do we just sit
back and watch as terrorists do their work?
How does America
offer assistance to other countries that need help and are asking
for help without getting involved? What is the solution I
Enter the mind of the CoolPoet
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
|Posted: 06 Feb 2003
06:24 Post subject:
Man you have a great
way of bringing this all to a point! Respect! Let us all now that
our opinions have been laid out ask ourselves now what is the right
solution. My point has been that war may be just the thing that God
will allow for His purposes.
I don't like war or killing any
more than any other Christian.
So how do we handle this
situation? I don't belive that God would have nothing be done. Sadam
is a huge sponser of terrorism. He is a murderer. He is a bully and
a has designs on even more murder. What should we do?