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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2004 17:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding how Christians should dress & look...

†Oremus wrote:
I think it depends on the culture.


I agree. I think that ideally Christians should either retain or adopt the traditional style of the culture in which they live, because the Gospel belongs to every people. Chinese Christians should wear Chinese clothing, Indian Christians should wear Indian clothing, Swedish Christians should wear Swedish clothing, Cameroonian Christians should wear the styles of Cameroon. They should all keep and develop their own languages and musical & artistic styles. Likewise, Christians who move to another country or region may retain something of their own culture, but when their intention is evangelization they should adopt the dress, customs, and culture of the locals to the greatest extent possible, just as they strive to learn the language to the greatest extent possible. The Gospel should be inculturated.

This is problematic, however, in increasingly diverse nations. Not because they are diverse, but just the opposite: because there is pressure to homogenize culturally (or to lose culture altogether, as in the U.S.). Personally, I would rather adopt multiple styles than homogenize into the same plain thing. But that's just me.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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warrior
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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2004 18:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

perfectloveinH.I.M.
Quote:
how is a Christian supposed to look and act


I think this topic came up really because there is such a radiotype of rasta. ie......dread,herb,red,gold and green. This is not so with the christian. Although maybe it should be.

If we dress/act like the rest of the world how will they tell us apart? Well, we know they will tell us apart by our love! Still this is the paradox in which we are sometimes stuck. If we look and live like the world, then what makes us any different? Are we not a new creation when we are born of GOD?

We all know JAH see the heart.

I bring this up about America, many believe they are christian because they attend church. Many others believe they are rasta because they make dreads and smoke herb. These things should be addressed within the body before we reason with those outside the body. Does that make sense? It sometimes hard to type what I want to say.

Encourage and rebuke with ALL authority!
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Isaiah 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
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perfectloveinH.I.M.
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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2004 16:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

bless,
dis is a issue of extreme complexity because historically, very few faiths or ways of life went out of their way to "convert" people to deh one and only "correct" way except for Christianity and Islam. when deh european dis-sionaries came to deh americas, to Afreeca, australia and deh far east dey did so wid utter disregard for indigenous cultures and faiths. when ones speak of deh gospel, deh meaning has gotten so twisted over deh years that ones assume it means deh good news of Je-zus Christ, when in actuality it does not. deh gospel simply means, deh good news of Jah's Kingdom coming. dis thread is deh same in a lot of faiths, basically saying to get right before it is too late. so when deh main idea of ones or ertain groups is proselytization, deh question must be asked do those teachings cause an Afreecan to try an emulate a european lifestyle? if deh answer is yes, den there is a definite problem. still, to dis day deh best way to spread whatever gospel ones choose is deh livity, as in deh example of Haile Selassie I/Yeshua deh Christ, not by talk cause dat is still cheap espicially when comes to one's salvation.
Hail H.I.M. in perfectlove
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2004 21:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

perfectloveinH.I.M. wrote:
when deh european dis-sionaries came to deh americas, to Afreeca, australia and deh far east dey did so wid utter disregard for indigenous cultures and faiths.


Like most generalizations, this one is wrong. Not all European missionaries "disregarded indigenous cultures and faiths." Many were exceptionally sensitive to indigenous beliefs and customs-- extremely counter-cultural for their time periods in that regard. The best-known examples would include Matteo Ricci, Roberto de Nobili, and Bernardino de Sahagun. Ricci and de Nobili insisted on dressing in the native clothing of the people and living as they lived. They studied not only the languages of the local people but also their philosophical and religious texts, which they often defended to other Westerners. They always used, to the best of their ability, indigenous ideas and ways of thinking to convey the Gospel in native terms. Bernardino de Sahagun, I think, did not go quite so far. He did, however, make extensive records of the native culture, including religious beliefs, based on firsthand reports and interviews. Though most moderners would probably not appreciate all of de Sahagun's own commentary, he did make great efforts to understand the people he sought to evangelize, and his firsthand records have been extremely valuable to anthropologists ever since.

Also, the first missionaries to Africa were Africans, and Christianity has continued on the continent since the very earliest of times. It is true that Europeans sent missionaries hundreds and hundreds of years later, and that many of those missionaries were wretchedly insensitive to the native peoples (and in some cases, still are), but the gross generalization is still unwarranted.

Quote:
when ones speak of deh gospel, deh meaning has gotten so twisted over deh years that ones assume it means deh good news of Je-zus Christ, when in actuality it does not. deh gospel simply means, deh good news of Jah's Kingdom coming.


The Gospel of Mark, which many believe to be the earliest Gospel book, begins "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." If anyone tells you the good news is Y'shua, they are reporting exactly what the biblical gospels teach, for Y'shua taught "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and "I AM the Resurrection and the Life."

And you should know that traditional Christians, Christians with ancient roots like the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic, believe that Jah's Kingdom and Y'shua's presence are inextricably bound together. No division between Y'shua and Jah Kingdom is possible.

Quote:
deh question must be asked do those teachings cause an Afreecan to try an emulate a european lifestyle?


Christianity does not require anyone to emulate a European lifestyle. Christianity originated on the Asian continent and went to Africa before Europe, and has existed and been lived continually in Asia & Africa longer than it has existed in Europe. If anything, Christian Europeans should strive to become more like Asians & Africans.

Quote:
still, to dis day deh best way to spread whatever gospel ones choose is deh livity, as in deh example of Haile Selassie I/Yeshua deh Christ, not by talk cause dat is still cheap espicially when comes to one's salvation.


I agree. And so did Francis of Assisi, who said: "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." But I guess you couldn't agree with him because he's a European Westerner and an Italian Catholic, right?
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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perfectloveinH.I.M.
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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2004 16:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, the first missionaries to Africa were Africans, and Christianity has continued on the continent since the very earliest of times. It is true that Europeans sent missionaries hundreds and hundreds of years later, and that many of those missionaries were wretchedly insensitive to the native peoples (and in some cases, still are), but the gross generalization is still unwarranted.

so what you are telling I, is that Afreecans had to leave their continent or receive knowledge from a foreign source to learn how to live correctly in Jah sight? Ini don't buy it!

Quote:
They studied not only the languages of the local people but also their philosophical and religious texts, which they often defended to other Westerners. They always used, to the best of their ability, indigenous ideas and ways of thinking to convey the Gospel in native terms.


So what deh I is saying, is that some dis-sionaries took deh time to copy the native culture and move as wolves in sheep's clothing among deh people, when really they were there wid ulterior motives? dat is extra bogus in every sense of deh word! deh saying goes, when in rome, do as deh romans, why does dat not apply in other places? why do europeans feel compeled to change, instead of live and let live? it is not as if Afreecans had not journeyed out and been to all deh places that europeans were now just dis-covering, but deh difference is dat Afreecans left deh lands in deh same manner as deh found dem, deh majority of dem. where as deh majority of europeans did deh exact opposite, with a few exceptions.

The Gospel of Mark, which many believe to be the earliest Gospel book, begins "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." If anyone tells you the good news is Y'shua, they are reporting exactly what the biblical gospels teach, for Y'shua taught "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and "I AM the Resurrection and the Life."

Quote:
And you should know that traditional Christians, Christians with ancient roots like the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic, believe that Jah's Kingdom and Y'shua's presence are inextricably bound together. No division between Y'shua and Jah Kingdom is possible


so when He says deh kingdom is in and around us, why did He not say that He was deh kingdom?

Quote:
Christianity does not require anyone to emulate a European lifestyle. Christianity originated on the Asian continent and went to Africa before Europe, and has existed and been lived continually in Asia & Africa longer than it has existed in Europe. If anything, Christian Europeans should strive to become more like Asians & Africans.


dis is deh problem inna nutshell, why can't peoples of Mama I-rth be content with being themselves. global Christianity does require ones to assimilate into deh dominant culture and turn their back upon their heritage and culture. what irks me is that 4000 years ago there were no Jews, 2000 years ago there were Christians and then ones runcom tell indigenous people dat their respective faiths are keeping them living as heathens & pagans, when some of their doctrines are more ancient
than what deh are trying to force upon dem. Afreecan tribal religions, western hemisphere Indians and all other practices by people of color scared most europeans because of ignorance. what deh did not overstand, deh feared, from which hate and deh world as Ini know it was birthed.[/quote]
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2004 00:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

perfectloveinH.I.M. wrote:
Quote:
Also, the first missionaries to Africa were Africans, and Christianity has continued on the continent since the very earliest of times. It is true that Europeans sent missionaries hundreds and hundreds of years later, and that many of those missionaries were wretchedly insensitive to the native peoples (and in some cases, still are), but the gross generalization is still unwarranted.

so what you are telling I, is that Afreecans had to leave their continent or receive knowledge from a foreign source to learn how to live correctly in Jah sight? Ini don't buy it!


Not necessarily. There are many who consider Palestine to be as much a part of the African continent as the Asian continent. But I think that debate is somewhat irrelevant.

You seem to be offended by what people call the "scandal of particularity." Jah chose Abraham and his descendents from all people, Jah formed the Jewish people to be his own "firstborn." This people, among all nations, was destined to be the light to all. So yes, Y'shua is a Jew, and all the people of the world have to look to Y'shua the Jew for salvation. As Y'shua himself taught: "Salvation is from the Jews."

It is legitimate to point out, of course, that some of Abraham's descendants are also descended from Africans. And, though perhaps less recently, all human beings come from Africa.

Quote:
Quote:
They studied not only the languages of the local people but also their philosophical and religious texts, which they often defended to other Westerners. They always used, to the best of their ability, indigenous ideas and ways of thinking to convey the Gospel in native terms.


So what deh I is saying, is that some dis-sionaries took deh time to copy the native culture and move as wolves in sheep's clothing among deh people, when really they were there wid ulterior motives?


Just the opposite. They recognized the people and their cultures as intrinsically valuable. They recognized the people as images of Jah created to participate in the gift of Y'shua's divine life, they recognized the the existing cultures as good soil for the seed of the Gospel of Y'shua. All that is good and true in any culture is worthy of preservation and development in Y'shua's light.

Quote:
deh saying goes, when in rome, do as deh romans, why does dat not apply in other places?


And what I'm saying is that's what those men did. Matteo Ricci, when he went to China, gave up the Italian ways of his homeland. He adopted Chinese clothing, learned the Chinese languages and dialects, studied Chinese philosophy and religion, and lived a thoroughly Chinese life in Y'shua. And when people wanted to know about Y'shua, who is the only Savior for all people--including both Italians and Chinese equally, Matteo explained the Gospel of Y'shua in Chinese terms, using Chinese ideas and concepts. He showed the people of China that life in Y'shua is entirely harmonious with being Chinese, and that no one needs to be a Jew or an Italian to be a Christian.

Quote:
Quote:
And you should know that traditional Christians, Christians with ancient roots like the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic, believe that Jah's Kingdom and Y'shua's presence are inextricably bound together. No division between Y'shua and Jah Kingdom is possible


so when He says deh kingdom is in and around us, why did He not say that He was deh kingdom?


He did. He said that the Kingdom of Jah is within his disciples (Luke 17:21), and he said that he lives within his disciples (John 6:56, John 17:20-26, etc).

Quote:
Quote:
Christianity does not require anyone to emulate a European lifestyle. Christianity originated on the Asian continent and went to Africa before Europe, and has existed and been lived continually in Asia & Africa longer than it has existed in Europe. If anything, Christian Europeans should strive to become more like Asians & Africans.


dis is deh problem inna nutshell, why can't peoples of Mama I-rth be content with being themselves.


The only way to truly be yourself is to live in Y'shua. As the image of the invisible God for and in which we humans were made, Y'shua fully reveals us to ourselves. Y'shua makes the African more truly African, the Indian more truly Indian, the American more truly American, the Japanese more truly Japanese, the European more European, etc. Why? Because he affirms and preserves all that is good in a people and culture, and then he elevates that good to divine Life in him.

This is not inevitable, of course. It is possible to resist Y'shua and his Holy Spirit. It is possible to turn go against the will of Jah, as colonialists and slave holders have certainly done, and as we have all done whenever we sin against Jah and our brother man. Such sins are hell, and they kill the life inside us. But when we receive Jah Spirit and live in Y'shua, we become more truly ourselves through the loving gift of ourselves to others and the humble reception of others as gift.
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Do you remember when they crucified the Christ? There was someone on the left and someone on the right. They were both thieves! It's the same for ideologies. —Berhane Selassie
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Ras B
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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2004 18:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

apologies to go back to this but i jus see the responce from boomfire so i had to comment. i find I-dren perfectloveinH.I.M. responded weel to it, but i have some more to add

Quote:
hey man , you need to remember that dreads are nothing more than a hair style,

maybe to you but, is based on your own understanding, which i dont agre wit at all

Quote:
then i must remind you or anyone else that the whole point of the vow was to shave off your hair when you completed the vow

oh really? i am curious where that info. is found because the bible doesnt say that. i thought the whole point of the vow was to be specially conescrated during the time of the vow.

Quote:
and once again after Jesus came, those vows were null and void ,since they had to do the the law

so then why did paul take the vow? i find this misconseption is one of the reasons people to not uphold the sabbath anymore more either. in a number of places in the NT it is stated that the messiah came to fulfill the law not abolish it. fulfilling the law not bring one salvation but the law is still the moral standard of Jah with the exceptions of the things that the Messiah changed himself


Quote:
(also read acts when peter has the vision and is commanded to eat the very animals that someone taking the vow was supposed to stay away from)

that "command" was only given because the man who it was given to and other jews were the type to hold the mosiac meat laws in the way of a gentiles salvation, so that command" eliminated that hindurance.
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JonaGus
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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2004 18:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ras B wrote:
Quote:
then i must remind you or anyone else that the whole point of the vow was to shave off your hair when you completed the vow

oh really? i am curious where that info. is found because the bible doesnt say that. i thought the whole point of the vow was to be specially conescrated during the time of the vow.


If you read Numbers 6:1-21 carefully, you will find that the Nazarite vow was a temporary special consecration. And yes, the Bible does say that that when the time of the vow is completed the participant's head should be shaved:

Numbers 6:13-21 wrote:

13 "Now this is the law of the Nazirite: When the days of his separation are complete, he shall be brought to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 14 And he shall present his offering to the LORD: one male lamb in its first year without blemish as a burnt offering, one ewe lamb in its first year without blemish as a sin offering, one ram without blemish as a peace offering, 15 a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and their grain offering with their drink offerings.
16 "Then the priest shall bring them before the LORD and offer his sin offering and his burnt offering; 17 and he shall offer the ram as a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread; the priest shall also offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 Then the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and shall take the hair from his consecrated head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offering.
19 "And the priest shall take the boiled shoulder of the ram, one unleavened cake from the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and put them upon the hands of the Nazirite after he has shaved his consecrated hair, 20 and the priest shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD; they are holy for the priest, together with the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering. After that the Nazirite may drink wine.'
21 "This is the law of the Nazirite who vows to the LORD the offering for his separation, and besides that, whatever else his hand is able to provide; according to the vow which he takes, so he must do according to the law of his separation."

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